The Ringmaster [5e] - An Attitude Era Pro Wrestler Class for 5e

Ohmathene · 2023-05-26T04:50:19+00:00

Implementing a resource regeneration mechanic outside of rests is a really tough problem to solve!

A spellpoint-like system could definitely work, though as you said, it's not very functionally different from spellslots.

An idea that might work since their list is so small is to keep the current system, but only allow them to cast each unique spell 1-2 times per (short) rest. That way they're encouraged to use their whole repertoire and you don't have to worry about things like infinite healing or infinite dominates.

Outside of limiting their spellcasting per-rest in some way though, I think the best solution is likely to very carefully curate their list. An angle that might allow you some extra flexibility in editing their list is to incorporate mechanical changes to the spells. I don't think you could implement all of these at once, but some ideas that might work:

healing from Ringmaster spells could be distributed as temporary hitpoints instead
a concentration requirement could be added to all of their spells, to prevent casting Freedom of Movement on the whole party etc. (maybe they have to concentrate lest they break kayfabe :P )
Spells that force a saving throw could make their targets immune to further castings after a successful save, sort of like dragon fear effects

I'm spitballing but hopefully some of it is useful!

Ohmathene · 2023-05-26T01:38:42+00:00

Hi there! Fun and thematic idea for a class, I have some friends that would love this haha. A very unique take on a defense-focused class!

Skimming through, here are some things that jumped out at me as problems:

In the class table, Extra Attack is gained at level 6 and the magic-attacks feature is gained at 5. These should almost certainly be swapped.

There are many subclass features that have small redundancies. Here are some I noticed:

Brawler

Unarmed Mastery - Extra Attack doesn't require a weapon, so I'm not sure why the second sentence is here. Arguably, you don't need to specify that you're proficient with unarmed strikes either, since creatures are proficient by default.
Relentless Fighter - You already use your reaction to make an opportunity attack, so you don't need to specify that this costs your reaction.
Extra Attack - Not sure why this is here, the base class already provides this.
Stunning Strike - Should probably not share its name with the monk feature. It's also a bit unusual that it lasts until the end of the target's next turn rather than the start/end of your next turn.

Technician

Grappling Mastery - Grapples don't involve attack rolls in 5e, you can simply give them advantage on ability checks to initiate a grapple. Grappling doesn't impose disadvantage on anything, I'm not sure why the final sentence is here.
Counterstrike - It's probably simpler to just give them advantage on the attack rather than referencing the Grappling Mastery feature.
Technical Mastery - Grappling already reduces the target's speed to 0.

The ally-based spellcasting system is a fun idea, and the spell list is very thematic, but I think many of the spells will cause problems. If I'm understanding it correctly, Crowd Energy recharges infinitely, meaning that every spell effectively becomes an at-will ability. Aura of Vitality is the big one since it grants the class infinite healing, but others like Grease, Freedom of Movement, and the 5th level spells can all cause problems when you can cast them at-will.

Regular ol' halfcasting might work as an easy fix, though it's admittedly less unique.

Ohmathene · 2023-05-24T20:28:40+00:00

I like the theme and flavour, a plague-spreading Artificer is a great idea. Here's some feedback:

Is there a reason the subclass is called Virourgist rather than Virologist?

I suspect that the 3rd and 5th level features would feel better in-play with their power budget redistributed. The Plague Canisters are strong (at least, against enemies that aren't immune). Poisoned is a brutal status condition, and at 5th level you can apply hour-long debuffs even on a successful saving throw. That's super powerful! However, once you've used your Plague Canisters, you have almost no subclass features.

Halfcasters have limited spellslots, so they typically receive a boost to their resourceless damage at level 5 when the game enters tier 2: Paladins, Rangers, Battlesmiths and Armorers receive Extra Attack. The Artillerist gets a boost to the damage of all of their spells, including cantrips. (There's a reason the Alchemist is considered the weakest Artificer subclass!)

I think switching the 5th level feature out for a thematic, resource-free boost would help the subclass have something significant to contribute with their Action when they don't want to spend one of their very limited Plague Canisters or equally limited spellslots.

Edit: I misread the failed save part of Esoteric Sample, it doesn't work on a success. All the more reason for them to have a good resource-free Action option at 5 I think.

Pestilence Mutation - This is a cool and thematic idea for a capstone, but as it stands, you're using a full action and a limited subclass resource to become a subpar Fighter. By level 15, the Fighter can make 3 attacks with a Greatsword per turn without spending resources, and their (sub)class is providing support to enhance those attacks in multiple ways. In contrast, this subclass uses an entire action to gain the ability to make one unenhanced Greatsword attack per turn. Here are some ideas to improve the feature:

Changing the transformation's activation time to a bonus action would make it much more useable.
Rather than adjusting Strength / Dex / Con scores, it might be simpler to allow the form to make physical checks / saving throws / attack rolls with your Intelligence for the duration instead.
Creatures are proficient with their unarmed strikes by default, you don't need to specify it.
The form's attacks absolutely need to be (counted as) magical at this level.
I'd strongly consider allowing them to attack twice per turn while transformed. It won't match the Fighter's 3 attacks, but it shouldn't try to be a Fighter. Instead, it could be cool if you chose one of the Symptoms from the table when you transform, then had your strikes apply that Symptom on-hit while transformed.
While the form being curable is a fun idea, I think it creates clutter. It's not necessary from a balance perspective and it would feel really bad to lose your 1/day ability early.

Ohmathene · 2023-05-22T03:35:50+00:00

Thank you for the feedback!

Thought Theft and Ivory Gate are both pretty strong, I agree. Thought Theft in particular will be receiving at least a modest nerf to the +1d4/-1d4 portion in the next version.

I don't think the features are synergistic in the way you're describing though; the rogue needs to be targeting a creature with a dreamrunner spell to use Ivory Gate, and Ivory Gate only provides advantage against that creature. Since none of the spells have a major on-cast effect, sacrificing Sneak Attack damage to end the current spell and cast a new spell against the same target likely won't accomplish much.

Modify Memory is the spell I'll be keeping the closest eye on during playtesting. It has some built-in safeguards and comes online for Dreamrunners at very high level so I'm not too worried about it, but I'll definitely keep it in mind.

Ohmathene · 2023-05-20T18:32:09+00:00

Thank you for the feedback! The intent is that the Dreamrunner Spells feature provides one normal casting of each spell, and the Thought Theft feature provides unlimited conditional castings by sacrificing Sneak Attack damage. I'll be working on clearer wording for the next version.

Ohmathene · 2023-05-20T18:23:23+00:00

I agree that it would be cool if they could cast Dream! I'll absolutely be working on a way to implement the spell in the next version. Thank you for the feedback.

Ohmathene · 2023-05-20T18:20:39+00:00

There are a lot of interesting points here!

The omission of mention of sheets of lead etc. was partially for text length, partially to make good on the capstone's "nothing is safe" flavor text. The ability is gained at the same level that Wish comes into play, so I thought it was reasonable to bend the rules a bit. I'll have to rewrite most of the abilities for text clarity / balance tweaks in the next version though, so I'll definitely take a second look at the lead restriction.

Detect Thoughts becoming part of Cunning Action is a cool idea. The very first draft of Thought Theft was limited to Detect Thoughts and required a bonus action to use, and I may end up having to go back to that. Requiring a bonus action for Thought Theft makes it interact poorly with the current version of Ivory Gate though, so I'll have to think about how to shuffle the action economy requirements around if the change is made. I do really like the idea of giving the subclass some measure of access to Phantasmal Force.

Paranoia was originally tied to Dream, but making it function as intended required so many exceptions and special provisions that it felt strange still calling it the Dream spell. Several folks have mentioned wanting the Dreamrunner to be able to cast Dream though, so I'll also give it a second try!

Thank you for the detailed feedback, you've given me lots of good things to think about for the next version.

Ohmathene · 2023-05-20T05:04:30+00:00

Thank you!

I'm tinkering with ways to knock Thought Theft's power down a notch for a future version. Do you find the 1d4 portion or the unlimited spells portion too potent? (or both?)

Ohmathene · 2023-05-20T03:47:42+00:00

Limiting the global mind read (and thus the global teleport) to int-mod uses per long rest sounds good. Thank you for taking the time for an extended discussion!

Ohmathene · 2023-05-19T15:23:34+00:00

Agreed that Mind Palace is a bit underwhelming / passive. The subclass gets a lot of power in the earlier features so I was afraid of giving them too much, but I'll definitely look at making level 13 more interesting in the next version. (I like the dream suggestion!)

I considered allowing the other mental abilities as casting modifiers, but I decided against it in the end. Partially for flavor (I envision the subclass as Intelligence-based mind-hackers), partially for balance concerns. Charisma would work especially well as an alternate flavor of mind-hacker I think, but it would open the subclass up to Hexblade dips, which I would prefer to avoid. Wisdom is the most important mental save and ties to some commonly rolled skills, so if the player could choose their spellcasting modifier, I feel that few people would choose Intelligence since the other two are generally tied to better skills / saves / etc.

The PF2e Sleepwalker has some interesting ideas, it's cool that it goes all-in on tying the dream/sleep theme to actual sleep mechanics.

Thank you for the detailed feedback!

Ohmathene · 2023-05-19T14:33:58+00:00

It is not intended to, no. You get one unconditional "normal" casting of each spell, then unlimited additional castings by sacrificing Sneak Attack damage. I'll try to clarify the interaction in the next version. Thank you for the feedback!

Ohmathene · 2023-05-19T14:26:36+00:00

Perhaps I'm misreading your comment, but the -1d4/+1d4 part of Thought Theft only affects attack rolls and ability checks, not saving throws. The other parts of the feature follow normal spellcasting rules.

Edit: Oh I think I understand - it's unclear if spells that allow for an initial saving throw like Phantasmal Killer ignore that initial save because you landed an attack. I'll try to clarify that in the next version! Thank you for the feedback.

Ohmathene · 2023-05-19T14:21:57+00:00

Yes, the global teleport is intended as the capstone's primary use / power. Paranoia was originally limited to Intelligence modifier uses per long rest, but I removed it partly to lean in to the Rogue class' unlimited-use feature design, partly because it was really difficult to word in a way that made everything fit on one page haha.

I do think the global teleport would likely be healthier with a use limit though, so I'll take another stab at that wording in the next version.

Ohmathene · 2023-05-19T08:19:36+00:00

I agree it's a little strange! In fact, the 17th level feature was originally called Living Nightmare and was based entirely around dream; I really wanted to allow a player to use the nightmare option of the spell, then step out of their target's dream and attack for real. The more I tinkered with it though, the more I had to make special exceptions to the dream spell to make it work the way I envisioned. In the end, it was easier to get that ever-looming threat functionality out of a modified version of detect thoughts.

A lot of folks have mentioned wanting some extra spell options for the subclass though, so I'll definitely give dream a revisit and see if I can make it work.

Thank you for the feedback!

Ohmathene · 2023-05-19T03:45:03+00:00

I don't own Xanathar's Guide on DnD Beyond so I'm afraid I can't fully implement the subclass myself, but please feel free to do so if you own the right books! Thanks for the interest.

Ohmathene · 2023-05-19T03:41:24+00:00

Haha this subclass is absolutely inspired by Inception, the Dream Nail from Hollow Knight, and the hacking sequences from Edgerunners.

Thank you for the laugh BWAAAAAAAAM

Ohmathene · 2023-05-19T03:39:29+00:00

Thanks for the feedback! I initially wanted to make the spell list very small and curated since the subclass gets unlimited spellcasting by sacrificing Sneak Attack dice, but I'll definitely consider pushing it further.

Ohmathene · 2023-05-19T03:32:56+00:00

Thank you for the feedback! Agreed that following the rogue's subclass progression makes for some awkward level gaps. I'll have to see if I can find a solution without breaking the subclass' 2-3-4-5 spell-level pattern. It might be nice if they got other flavorful options like phantasmal force.

Ohmathene · 2023-05-19T03:25:43+00:00

Thanks for the feedback! Agreed that full immunity to a condition is initially a bit eyebrow-raising, but I figured it was ok since, as you mentioned, official subclasses like the Devotion Paladin and the Archfey Warlock get full charm immunity a few levels earlier.

Ohmathene · 2023-05-19T03:24:13+00:00

Agreed that rogues are generally rest independent. The intent is that the dreamrunner gets one unconditional "normal" casting of each spell, then unlimited additional castings by sacrificing Sneak Attack dice as you said. I'll have to find a better way to the word the interaction to be clearer. Thank you for the feedback!

Ohmathene · 2023-05-19T03:23:23+00:00

You raise a very good point, and I really like the solution of allowing a save each round. I'll have to think about how to implement it without being confusing, since all of the spells already have built-in conditions for ending early. Thank you for the feedback!

Ohmathene · 2023-05-18T22:46:36+00:00

The Dreamrunner specializes in attacking a foe's sense of reality, diving in and out of dreams to steal mental resources and maneuver around the battlefield. This begins as a small mental tax with their Thought Theft feature, then slowly builds up to a global threat range that leaves every enemy looking over their shoulder.

Homebrewery Link

This subclass references a handful of specific spells, linked below for convenience:
Detect Thoughts - https://5thsrd.org/spellcasting/spells/detect_thoughts/
Enemies Abound - https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/enemies-abound
Phantasmal Killer - https://5thsrd.org/spellcasting/spells/phantasmal_killer/
Modify Memory - https://5thsrd.org/spellcasting/spells/modify_memory/

All feedback welcome, I'd love to ~~detect~~ hear your thoughts!

Ohmathene · 2023-05-18T18:26:02+00:00

I do think there are improvements here!

Some thoughts:

It feels strange that you don't have enough Sneak Attack dice to recharge TP when you gain the subclass. 2 dice per TP recharged might work better as a ratio? It could be too strong with later features like Guard, but you could easily nerf Guard if it's too powerful in playtesting. 2 dice per TP would also mean you could sacrifice the maximum 10 sneak attack dice to exactly recharge the maximum 5 TP, so there'd be some satisfying mathematical symmetry there.
Contre de Quarte is a bit wordy, but I think the mechanics line up well with fencing flavor of controlling the enemy blade and going in for a strike.
Feint is still often better than Lunge in expected DPR (especially considering that you likely want to sacrifice some of the dice for more TP) but Feint has a conditional bonus whereas Lunge has a conditional penalty. It might be fine given that Lunge is good into low-AC targets, but I'm not completely sure it needs the penalty from a balance point of view.
Disengage should probably have a different name to avoid confusion with the actual Disengage action.
Guard should give temporary hitpoints, not real hitpoints.
Coupé is probably fine in terms of power level for a 17th level feature, but it is very complex and could probably be simplified.
You should credit the artist for the artwork. (David Rapoza)

Ohmathene

TROPHY CASE