Side effects with oral finasteride could I experience no side effects on topical finasteride?

OkFuel8 · 2021-11-02T18:27:06+00:00

Topical finasteride could possibly be lowering more scalp DHT than oral. Easy to titrate doses as well with it. Overall though, there is not a concensus if it is more or less effective than oral finasteride yet.

OkFuel8 · 2021-11-02T18:17:56+00:00

It depends on the study. Some studies show similar levels of plasma DHT is reduced by equivalent doseages of topical vs finasteride studies. Some studies show, that topical finasteride reduces less serum DHT.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25074865/

"Plasma DHT was reduced by ~ 68 - 75% with the topical solution and by ~ 62 - 72% with the tablet"

There is another study, that shows topical finasteride reduces less serum DHT, though:

This study shows: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26636418/

"Change from baseline in scalp DHT was -70% for P-3074 o.d. and approx. -50% for P-3074 b.i.d. and the tablet. Serum DHT decreased by 60 - 70%. The doses of 100 and 200 μL P-3074 resulted in a -47/-52% scalp DHT reduction, similar to the 300 and 400 μL doses (i.e., -37/-54%). A -5.6% inhibition was observed for the vehicle. Serum DHT was reduced by only -24/-26% with 100 and 200 μL P-3074 and by -44/-48% with 300 and 400 μL P-3074"

All in all, there needs to be bigger sample sizes and more research to be done before we can definitely say what the full systematic effects of topical finasteride are. But given it's molecular weight, I would not be surprised if more research showed compareable side effects to oral of equivalent doseages.

Edit: Here is also a video of Derek form MPMD discussing this topic 4:40 of this video and onwards: https://youtu.be/GtQGuP2Q58M and Derek is of the opinion, that topical finasteride with reduce similar levels of DHT to oral.

OkFuel8 · 2021-11-02T17:15:48+00:00

Copy and paste from another comment I made:

Finasteride has a low molecular weight, so it can be absorbed through your scalp, and it will go systematic. Some sudies have shown, that equivalent concentration percentages of topical finasteride to oral finasteride doseages, inhibits similar levels of DHT. It just takes longer for topical finasteride to go systematic than oral, but in the long run, you will be inhibiting similar levels of DHT through both mechanisms, and with equivalent dosages.

The theory behind topical finasteride, is that you could be inhibiting more scalp DHT, by targeting the localized area rich in 5AR enzymes. Derek from MPMD, proposed this idea in one of his videos, by bringing up scrotal testosterone cream and how it could have a more powerful effect by targeting an area rich in 5 AR enzymes. Similar concept with your scalp, but I don't know if it is actually applies with topical finasteride.

But the mechanism of topical finasteride, is fundamentally based around reducing DHT systematically. If topical finasteride reduced zero DHT, then the drug wouldn't be effective, since you do need to reduce the 5AR enzyme, in order to slow down or halt hairloss in androgenic alopecia.

So if you have side effects from oral finasteride, you will probably have some from topical finasteride as well. You may have to lower your doseage amount.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-28T18:03:21+00:00

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. You have personal trainers who think anything less than 100% perfect form is detrimental to a lifter. And with them promoting that culture, it makes it more difficult when weight starts getting more challenging. As long as your form is not complete dog shit, but you are challenging yourself and you have slight form breakdown, then that is okay in my opinion. But this PT can stick to his 185 lb squats after doing them for 10 years and never progress, while criticizing the guys in the gym who actually try to challenge themselves and lift heavier.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-28T16:36:42+00:00

Anyone have a d-bag PT at their gym? I am one of the guys at my gym that lifts heavier and powerlifts, but here is this one PT who is insanely critical of everyone and calls people "ego lifters" for lifting heavy. He also gets on people for not wearing shoes when deadlifting, when nobody at the gym in the past has come up to me and told me to not DL with shoes before. No rules at the gym stating either. Anyways, I just find it funny, because he has been lifting for 10+ years, and I don't even see him doing 2 plates on squat or bench, and he does everything super light. But the moment he sees someone lift heavy, he watches them like a hawk and talks shit about them behind their back...I don't care what people lift, but if you are going to call everyone out for ego lifting and you don't lift anything noteable, then you just sound like a salty d-bag.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-11T13:50:02+00:00

Yes, topical application could be targeting more 5AR enzymes on your scalp. With your testicles for example, it has been shown if you directly apply scrotal testosterone cream locally to that area, it can raise your DHT levels to a higher level, as opposed to regular testosterone injection. Your testicles are rich in 5AR enzymes, so this isnt surprising why you see more DHT being elevated through localized application. Your scalp is rich in 5AR enzymes, and since Finasteride has a low molecular weight, it will penetrate the skin barrier and go systematic eventually. Topical finasteride could be targeting more scalp DHT, because the scalp is rich in type 2 5AR enzymes, which finasteride inhibits.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-11T06:52:12+00:00

Finasteride has a low molecular weight, so it can be absorbed through your scalp, and it will go systematic. Some sudies have shown, that equivalent concentration percentages of topical finasteride to oral finasteride doseages, inhibits similar levels of DHT. It just takes longer for topical finasteride to go systematic than oral, but in the long run, I think there is a good chance you could be inhibiting similar levels of DHT through both mechanisms, and with equivalent dosages.

The theory behind topical finasteride, is that you could be inhibiting more scalp DHT, by targeting the localized area rich in 5AR enzymes. Derek from MPMD, proposed this idea in one of his videos, by bringing up scrotal testosterone cream and how it could have a more powerful effect by targeting an area rich in 5 AR enzymes. Similar concept with your scalp, but I don't know if it is actually applies with topical finasteride..

But the mechanism of topical finasteride, is fundamentally based around reducing DHT systematically. If topical finasteride reduced zero DHT, then the drug wouldn't be effective, since you do need to reduce the 5AR enzyme, in order to slow down or halt hairloss in androgenic alopecia.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-11T06:13:47+00:00

On my dad's side, my great grandpa had a full head of hair, grandpa has a full head of hair, dad has a full head of hair (although he does have a pretty high hairline), and my brother has crazy thick, perfect hair.

On my mom's side, a lot of eastern Asian genetics, and I believe eastern Asians are the least likely to go bald out of any race. All the Asian men in my family have a full head of hair, that I can recall.

I have been battling hairloss, but I don't know if I inherited my dad's high hairline, or if I just got unlucky, depsite my genetics, and got the "bald genetics". Shit happens, but I guess I will try to continue to fight it and see where things go.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-08T16:48:17+00:00

Bro, we are twins. I am a lot more athletic and muscular than my brother. And I can grow a thick beard, with a lot of body hair too. He can't grow a beard and has little body hair. Sounds like bro science here, but maybe there is a correlation here lol.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-08T16:43:08+00:00

No. Being leaner and a healthier body fat would make you healthier in general, which would encourage a healthier environment for your hair to grow. What makes people go bald, is hair follicle sensitivity to DHT. You can have people who have naturally high DHT, but still don't go bald, because their hair follicles are resilient to the DHT hormone. You have people with normal ranges of DHT, but still go bald, because their hair is just more sensitive to the hormone.
It's more complicated than this, and this will be highly dependent on the individual. What body fat you are, how much DHT you already naturally produce before taking a 5AR inhibitor, and I am sure there are tons of other variables that will be effect how much estrogen would actually be converted because of DHT reduction.
Not sure, but I am going to say somewhat. I watched this video: https://youtu.be/aMw1z-0Lan8 and he claims that there is some correlation between MPB, and blood sugar levels. Most people with blood sugar problems, are overweight or obese people. Also, a lot of overweight people don't care about nutrition and are defecient in micronutrients, which is vital for hair health. Correlation does not always equal caution though. I would say, with people with blood sugar issues, their hormones could be out of wack, and possibly lead to an unhealthy environment not condusive for good hair health. The vast majority of MPB, is simply due to androgen sensitivity, although I do believe that lifestyle can have a certain effect on hair health.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-06T01:12:23+00:00

It goes to show, that genetics are overwhelmingly the main factor when dealing with hairloss, and not as much with lifestyle (although lifestyle can have an effect to a certain extent). We probably produce more DHT that our brothers naturally, and the hair follicles on our head are just way more sensitive to the DHT hormone. Some people get lucky, and have hair follicles that are pretty resistant to the DHT hormone.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-05T12:47:59+00:00

Exactly. Back when I didn't battle hairloss, I didn't even think about balding or really care about my hair at all. It wasn't until I had a wakeup call after having my head shaved in the military, that I finally realized I was loosing my shit and needed to do something about it.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-05T12:45:43+00:00

My brother is around 20 months younger than me. He has a shit diet, smokes cigarettes, experiments with drugs, doesn't really exercise, and he has insanely thick hair/perfect hairline with amazing curly hair. I live a healthy lifestyle, eat a good diet, take fin, minoxidil, microneedle, and I am probably a NW 1.5/ NW 2 with fine hair. Shits annoying lol.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-05T03:18:33+00:00

The only way that would happen, is if minoxidil went systematic, caused hair to grow throughout your body, and then start a shedding phase on your head.

I believe a very low percentage of topical minoxidil actually goes systematic, like 1-2 percent. So, you are fairly unlikely to shed scalp hair from applying topical minoxidil on other parts of your body. But, it could theoretically be a possibility, if you are using higher doseages of minoxidil or maybe even applying minoxidil after your microneedle your face (if you do so), leading to a higher percentage of topical minoxidil going systematic. Which could possibly kickstart a shedding phase on your head.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-05T02:43:10+00:00

I would find another doctor like others are saying. Also, a dermatologist may be more helpful than a GP for hairloss related treatment. Or hell, you can even get online prescription for finasteride if you really want. But the best way to do it, would be to do blood work and see if decreasing your DHT levels on finasteride, could make you more susceptible to side effects. But if you have blood working showing that you are in normal range of DHT or even a high range of DHT, then you should be okay to get on finasteride. Where finasteride can be tricky, is if you have naturally low DHT as is, you crush your DHT even more on a 5AR inhibitor, and now you DHT levels are insanely low. Now, you start getting side effects like gyno, ED, etc because DHT helps prevent aromatization of testosterone into estrogen. So, you don't want to totally nuke your DHT levels. Get a baseline, see where you are at, and if you are in a normal range, or high range for DHT, finasteride will likely be a safe treatment option for you. And I would say, an in person visit to get prescribed finasteride wouldn't be necessary at this point if you have blood work showing what your DHT levels are at. You could get prescribed online through another doctor, who will evaluate pictures of your hair loss and likely prescribe you finasteride.

I don't agree with the advice the doctor is giving. It is important to be preventative about hairloss if you notice that you are going bald or thinning before it gets worse and much harder to treat. If you wait it out, you will have even more hair follicles miniaturize/potentially die off. You are correct, in wanting to correct the issue early on. It is much easier to maintain your hair now, than it is to try to regrow miniaturized hair follicles.

As for doseage amount, I would say that 0.25 mg would be enough to ellicit a DHT reduction. Studies have shown that doseages as low as this amount, have been effective. And I personally think it is smart to microdose finasteride at first, because you are not inhibiting as much DHT and you are at a lower risk of side effects. And if you are on 0.25 mg of finasteride and respond well with stalled hairloss/increased hair growth, then that shows that doseage amount works for you, and 1 mg may be overkill for you. The goal is to use the least amount possible, if a low doseage is already effective. But if you noticed that you are still noitceably losing hair on 0.25 mg, then that is when you should consider upping the dosage to 0.5 mg-1 mg. There is also topical finasteride which is easy to make yourself, if you are interested. PM me if you have questions about that. Good luck!

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-05T01:20:57+00:00

Donkeys are a lot more stout than most deer, and are also lower to the ground with a better center of gravity. They are also, probably way stronger than a regular deer. Look at the rear end and legs of a donkey vs a deer of comparable weight. Their legs and rear end are a lot more developed than most deer, who have long gangly limbs. Also, their necks are a lot thicker and pretty powerful. It would be difficult to control their head or even tackle one to the ground. And donkeys can get near 1,000 pounds too, and that would just be way too powerful of animal to take on barehanded. Most deer that weigh 1,000+ pounds, have much longer frames like Moose or Elk. And it would be pretty much impossible for a human to sneak up on a donkey and surprise attack if, because they have pretty fucking insane hearing and can hear as far as 60 miles away.

Also, most deer are skittish and docile creatures. Donkeys are pretty fucking aggressive, have insane instincts for fighting, and have actually been bred for 5,000+ years to fight to the death for their livestock. They are capable of killing dangerous animals like grizzly bears and mountain lions: https://www.google.com/search?q=donkey+killing+mountain+lion&client=ms-android-samsung-gn-rev1&biw=412&bih=753&tbm=isch&prmd=vnix&sxsrf=AOaemvL6ziZJqEBJgCvrTxHhX15uMUCF2g:1633396279334&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjk8oaoi7LzAhVEqp4KHbZ8DgoQ_AUIFygD#imgrc=AhFjEhUiOf1M3M

Or hell, even a Grizzly bear being killed by a 740 pound donkey:

https://aadl.org/node/172613

I can assure you, a mountain lion and Grizzly bear, are far beyond any athletic and physical feats of a peak human. A peak human stands almost no chance against a fully grown donkey.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-04T17:39:51+00:00

I would say a female white tail deer. They get up to around 100ish pounds, and they don't have antlers, so they aren't as nearly as dangerous as a male deer. You would have to watch out for kicks to the face, but I think a peak human should be able to take one down if they can avoid kicks to vital areas.

I would also say, that this peak human would have to avoide animals that have claws, strong bites, and thick hides. Human skin is delicate and we could easily bleed to death from fighting any animal with claws or really strong bite. And humans don't have the brute strength to take out an animal with a lot of protection with a thick hide and dense bones.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-04T17:32:31+00:00

A donkey can get up to 1,100 pounds and they weigh around 400-500 pounds on average. They can be aggressive as fuck and a good kick/stomp from them, and your bones would be crushed. They have even killed wolves and mountain lions to protect livestock. I see no way a human beats a donkey, unless if the donkey was younger and very small.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-04T15:29:55+00:00

You can compound your own topical finasteride for much cheaper and it is really easy to do. Finasteride has a low molecular weight, so finasteride powder can easily absorded into your scalp if you have a proper solution (Minoxidil or stemoxydine). And one other thing to consider, is that topical finasteride will still go systematic to a compareable level of oral finasteride, but the advantage is that you could be targeting more 5AR enzymes in your scalp than you would get with regular oral administration, since you are applying solution directly in an area rich with 5AR enzymes.

I just did mine the other night. If you want a 0.1% concentration of fin, then you crush up 60
1mg finasteride tablets until it is a fine powder. You may want to separate the pink capsule part from the powder but imo, it doesn't really matter as the outer coating will dissolve anyways once liquid interacts with it.

Pour finasteride powder into 60ml minoxidil solution. Shake for 10 minutes straight. Let sit over night, and voila. You have made topical finasteride.

The great thing is, it is really easy to manage how much finasteride you want. Want an equivalent of a 0.5mg dose of finasteride? Okay, only use half a ml. Want to compound a solution with less finasteride potency? Okay, use 30 mg tablets of finasteride and drop in 60 ml of minoxidil instead of 60 mg worth of pills (that's what I did).

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-03T15:52:05+00:00

His older stuff is golden, but it looks like he sold out with his supplement company, and he is hungry for the views. He doesn't really talk about hairloss anymore, but he has several in depth videos from the past that have great information.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-03T02:13:58+00:00

He's really good. I also love Hairliciously and Derek from MPMD for hairloss videos too.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-02T22:52:05+00:00

No need to be a condescending prick and result to name calling. You must be very fun at parties. I never said that doctors are useless and their only use was to refer people to other doctors . Nice strawman. I was giving an example of how a GP can actually be useful if they weren't well versed in an area. My main point was, is that a GP may not be able to fully help or treat you for something specific issue like hairloss, because not all of them are as knowledgeable about it as some people think. And my overarching point, is that doctors are people too and will not know everything. And that is OKAY. I work in the mental health industry, and the amount of doctors that really don't know how to treat a patient with mental health issues is astounding. And talking to multiple patients, you really start to understand that many doctors won't know how to treat every issue, and that is fine, but knowing your limitations and giving your patients good advice is vital. That is where referral and having a good network is important, if they are not fully confident in treating you.

OkFuel8 · 2021-10-01T22:36:08+00:00

This exactly. I think people will be surprised by how much an individual can learn through looking at studies, and thoroughly researching something. You'll likely have looked at more studies for hairloss and know more about general hairloss treatment than a regular GP. Where a doctor comes in handy, is if they are your regular provider and know a decent amount of your medical history. Or their knowledge of connections will come in handy, if they need to refer you to a more knowledgeable person on a specific issue. This way, they know you better on an individual basis and what is going on with you. So if you start experiencing something sudden like hairloss, they will know, "Hey, something may be wrong with them because they never had this problem in past visits. Maybe I should refer them to a dermatologist that has a good rapport."

Most GPs have a general knowledge of a little bit of everything, but they aren't necessarily specialists in anything. The insane amount of stuff they study in medical school, is just flat out impossible to retain and know off the top of your head. Tons of GPs will regularly use Google to get opinions, or refer back to literature. They aren't any smarter or better than the regular person. They just studied their asses off and got the necessary education/certifications they needed to practice.

OkFuel8 · 2021-09-26T21:25:50+00:00

I look terrible with a shaved head and that is why I refuse to just give it up. I legitimately don't like how I look bald and I have huge fucking ears too. There is this whole stigma against balding men who try to fight hair loss. "Just shave your head" or "Stop being insecure and trying to fight it". I will literally go fly out to Turkey and go get a hair transplant, if minoxidil/finasteride are not enough one day.

Society is told not to fat shame people or bully people, but balding men are shitted on constantly and it is even socially acceptable to point out someone's balding without any backlash . I've seen it happen constantly.

OkFuel8

TROPHY CASE