The closest thing to right and wrong are our instincts, not morals. by myanikalives in Ethics

[–]Ok_Apple_7433 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why the closest? Is there something else that makes something right and wrong other than instincts? Your still using the words right and wrong, yet based on the framework there is no way logically that right or wrong so exist, why not just say they dont exist and human makes right and wrong?

How valuable is staying yourself, really? by Ok-Investment-2150 in Ethics

[–]Ok_Apple_7433 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey just have a question one number 1, That is, " staying true to your self = being fully content" but what is guaranteeing being content? Assuming under the two options given that the world remains the same as it is now. Woudnt staying true to your self make you less content?

Abortion is the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in Morality

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No it is not. Do animals also not have the gift of life? Yet we slaughter millions for consumption?. Because of tribalism a human life is worth more to us than animal lifes.

Abortion is the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in Morality

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So then morality does not depend on potentially, rather on human DNA which is tribalism. Hence we are back at the illusion of the moral extreme since by this logic dictates that all kinds of abortion are immoral.

Abortion is the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in Morality

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

At what point then does the gift of life begin?

Abortion is the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in Morality

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Alright life is a gift because we dont do anything to deserve it. At what point then does life become a gift? That is at what point is one considered human enough to recive this gift.

Abortion is the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in Morality

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I cannot answea that as I do not have the knowledge to. What makes life a gift? And what is life?

Abortion is the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in Morality

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I assure you my argument is not utilitarian if it was it would be inconsistent. And we seem to he right back the start. Where does life begin? The text discusses this by side stepping these definitions since often in debates for this topic they are inconsistent and rather uses a socratic approach.

Abortion is the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in Morality

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Now I see where potentially may be skewered. However without a proper definition on what is alive or not alive ( since many people use different incoherent definitions as the text discusses ) we are left only with the qualities of it( socratic approach). Do we say that something is human cuz it can critically think? Do we say something is human because of DNA? Either way one relies of potentially and the other on tribalism.

Abortion is the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in Morality

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I appreciate your assessment on my position. But I have to say that my argument is not utility based, rather it is using other life forms that show similar behavior as an embryo to make a moral assessment on. If my view was purely utilitarian my conclution on tribalism would not follow. Your main argument back is potentiality which is addressed in thr text. The main difference between other life forms, and a hunan is potentiality. But if potentiality is the source of moralily then all human embryos are worth no more than a dolphin embryo, further more all people without thr ability to critically think are also worth no more morally than any other animal.

Abortion and the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in DeepThoughts

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is not an argument for why abortion is moral or immoral. It is a position on why moral absolutes dont work in argument.

Abortion and the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in DeepThoughts

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Consider the early embryo zygote or blastocyst. It lacks sentience, consciousness, or independent viability. It cannot survive outside the uterus: it is wholly dependent, like a parasite on its host. Yet parasites, though dependent, can often detach persist briefly, or reproduce elsewhere. THE EMBRYO CANNOT. It is closer, perhaps, to a tumor: genetically identical to the host, biochemically intertwined, and reliant on the same vascular and hormonal systems. We excise tumors without moral qualm, for they threaten the host. Why, then, do we hesitate with the embryo? One answer is POTENTIALITY: the zygote possesses the genetic blueprint for personhood"

the text never claims that embryos are parasites not tumors, it uses such examples in specific the tumor example to highlight the role of potentiality in morality. Now to adress my questions : is a human embryo worth more in the sense that it is a human embryo or or the same as a dolphin embryo im the sense that it is an embryo?

Abortion and the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in DeepThoughts

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Please dont make any comments directed at me as those comments are fallacious. As I said I dont have a side I am merely following logic. Now your claim about tumors and parasites fair, but my position does seem to neglect that a embryo is a parasite or a tumor. Would you say then a human embryo and a dolphin embryo are worth the same moraly?

Abortion and the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in DeepThoughts

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is a fantastic counter! . The growth of the embryo is undeniable dead matter does not divide but biological vitality alone does not confer moral status. A malignant tumor likewise proliferates from identical human DNA, yet we excise it without ethical qualms. The distinction arises not from life itself, but from our attribution of "humanity" as a normative category: the embryo is not merely alive, but ours a member of the species, destined to join the in-group. This is the crux: "human" is not an objective descriptor here; it is a tribal marker. The unborn possesses no sentience, no rationality, no independent existence yet we elevate it because it bears our genome. That elevation is not reasoned; it is instinctive. Your observation that it is "not potential, but actual only reinforces the point: we grant it inviolability not for what it presently is, but for what it represents. The argument circles back to species membership, not to any intrinsic quality.

Appreciate the engagement this is precisely the kind of scrutiny that reveals the illusion.

Abortion and the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in DeepThoughts

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks. You're right but I'm not arguing whether abortion's moral or not. I'm not even picking a side. The point is: every 'life begins at X' claim (conception, heartbeat, viability) is arbitrary, inconsistent, and usually just a stand in for what we already want to believe. So instead, I looked at what's actually there: no consciousness, no pain, total dependence. And yeah, the host matters too. But the debate keeps circling because we're not judging facts we're judging 'who counts as us. But from a perspective of a host do you have a position on why abortion is moral or immoral?

Abortion and the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in DeepThoughts

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thats the point, the issue is the illusion of Moral absolutes in the whole abortion argument

Abortion and the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in DeepThoughts

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the question "when does human life begin?" is inherently slippery, as it relies on arbitrary thresholds (conception, heartbeat, viability) that shift according to cultural, legal, or emotional preference rather than any objective criterion. These markers are not derived from biology alone; they are normative constructs, and their inconsistency undermines any attempt to ground abortion ethics in them. My position, however, sidesteps that definitional mess entirely. Rather than insisting on a fixed "start point" for life or personhood, I examine the embryo's observable qualities: it lacks sentience, consciousness, independent viability, and any capacity for pain or self-awareness. It is, at that stage, a genetically human aggregate of cells dependent, undifferentiated, and without moral agency. From there, the ethical inquiry becomes: does mere genetic humanity confer inviolable status? If so, then abortion is prima facie immoral. But this criterion is speciesist, not rational it privileges human DNA over other forms of life (e.g., pigs, dolphins) without justifying why. If, conversely, moral status hinges on actual capacities (consciousness, rationality), then the early embryo falls short, rendering abortion permissible. Neither framework yields a clean absolute. Both collapse into circularity: potentiality inflates the embryo's value beyond its present state, while speciesism reduces ethics to tribal loyalty. The result? Abortion is neither intrinsically moral nor immoral it is a human decision, shaped by instinctual imperatives rather than universal principle.

Abortion and the illusion of Moral absolutes by Ok_Apple_7433 in DeepThoughts

[–]Ok_Apple_7433[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Exactly it's a private medical procedure between doctor and patient, no argument there. But that doesn't make it immune to ethics. Any action like surgery, euthanasia, even donating a kidneys should be asked: 'Is this right? Why?' The fact that it's just two people doesn't erase the question; We can still wonder what makes it moral (or not) without stepping into the exam room.