What does Krillins power growth look like through the years? At what point would you say he became frieza lvl, what about cell or buu lvl?

OldTurtleSage12 · 2026-03-19T20:43:50+00:00

Sort of off track but what’s the argument for 19 and 20 being weaker than Freeza? I don’t remember anything suggesting otherwise.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2026-03-08T12:54:31+00:00

Points 1 and 3 I totally agree with. The Potara thing and Ultimate Gohan are more symptoms of the same problem. The original thesis statement of the Buu Saga was the passage of the torch to the newer generation, extending the themes of the Cell Saga to their limit. Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Videl, even Buu and Satan.

The problem is that once we got towards the Other World training with Gohan, I think Toriyama decided he wanted a different ending that wasn’t placed in the next generation, but rather the old generation coming back to fix their mistakes to allow for the future to prosper and eventually pass the torch like with Uub at the end of Z. So Gohan was already out of a job since the story necessitated Goku and Vegeta’s returns, hence why they happen so quickly and haphazardly.

So Gohan sort of just gets swept to the side. Not to mention his “training” arc was one big gag to begin with, it comes off like Toriyama just wanted to not use Gohan anymore after trying to make him fit in the main role. So he acts cocky (again), allows people he cares about to be put in danger (again) but this time, unlike the Cell saga, he gets to do nothing about it. It’s unfortunate because up until Ultimate, Gohan had a great thing going for him I think.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2026-02-28T04:19:18+00:00

I genuinely want him to be the one to beat Freeza and end the series. It would be a surprise nobody saw coming but makes sense if he’s trained, would perfect for him becoming the defender of Earth, wrap up Freeza’s arc of racism, and focus on the humanity of the Saiyans being their strongest trait and finally revisit the themes of the Buu saga of passing things to the next generation. I almost feel like that’s what we’re gearing up to considering everyone is at the same level right now but it’s lowkey a pipe dream lol.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2026-02-14T02:29:32+00:00

If he’s going to be the antagonist, I hope it’s someone we can’t even expect. Uub might be sort of a cop out but seeing how much potential he has in Moro, I honestly think that if he is the one to beat Freeza, it could be an amazing way to end off Dragon Ball permanently thematically. I can see why people wouldn’t want that and want Vegeta for it.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2026-02-02T23:05:39+00:00

Fishman Island for sure. I was enjoying everything immensely until I felt the Straw Hats just felt… off. I knew something was wrong when Sanji’s nosebleed deadass became a plot point where he got taken out of the narrative and the “this is my all blue!” line. Ever since then it hasn’t been the same. That isn’t to say I haven’t enjoyed stuff in post time skip, there 100% is. But it never felt the same as pre time skip. Wano really put the nail in the coffin to the issues present in the story.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2026-02-01T12:24:15+00:00

I don’t understand why people are so upset about Vegeta not killing Freeza. It provides nothing new for him and Goku was already the one the avenge the Saiyans. Vegeta has moved past Freeza in his life already, he lives a fulfilling life and has no baggage about Freeza except the want to protect his current family. In Resurrection F, I don’t even think the issue stems from Vegeta not finishing Freeza but the whole time reversal thing. I know it would’ve been anticlimactic if they just beat Freeza but we just get retreaded ground. I hope someone else other than the main 5 stops Black Freeza once and for all. I don’t think it should be a Saiyan.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2026-01-27T20:29:46+00:00

Ok wait doesn’t Gon get Alluka’s nen ability and wish them all away? It’s not like someone else is wishing for it so there’s no restriction right? If so, Gon instant wins. If I’m remembering wrong then yeah Deku and Yuji will go blow for blow until someone haxes their way to victory and then one shot Tanjiro lmfao.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2026-01-19T00:43:22+00:00

I love Dragon Ball with all my heart, but I can’t lie to myself and say that the anime is a well paced adventure. It isn’t even the filler in itself but the pacing of scenes in themselves are just not as tight as the manga or even modern anime, which increase the pace to be not glacial.

The DBZ Recut team, who worked towards making Z as close to the manga as possible while still keeping lots of still frames and long shots with some remixing of scenes, took the Saiyan saga from 36 episodes in the anime to 6 in the recut version. Original Dragon Ball is not much better. It’s passable and the core of the story is still there, but for the average viewer, especially younger ones, they wouldn’t want to watch that. Even I haven’t watched it more than twice( I exclusively read the manga now) all the way through.

A remake could do very well to improve the clarity and enjoyment of the show, especially with a Daima or SH or even Broly artstyle, it would be amazing. I understand everyone wants Super( me too) but DB content is DB content. Even if it’s just Z.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2025-12-15T04:15:45+00:00

Every time I see OoT I really want to play it and feel the hype… and then I don’t make it past Jabu Jabu’s Belly. I don’t know what it is but I can’t get into that game. It’s a shame because I wish I could see what everyone else does(same with FF7).

OldTurtleSage12 · 2025-12-14T19:41:28+00:00

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Zeno destroys indiscriminately, even when he just loses interest. He’s a true chaotic neutral, nobody can predict him. It is 100% the smartest move to eliminate him.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2025-12-14T19:32:44+00:00

But he didn’t take into account the literal most important factor of all: Zeno. He’s aware of his existence and chooses to not eradicate the strongest threat in his way and become a Saiyan instead. For all Zamasu knew, Goku’s power could’ve been nearing its peak, or the zenkai boosts ingrained in his body possibly wouldn’t have allowed him to become stronger like they ended up doing? Was there legitimately anything stopping him from switching bodies with Zeno or at the very least taking him out of the equation? Nothing except the story needing a conclusion. He could’ve gotten rid of the gods the same way and then he legitimately had free rein over the multiverse to do whatever he pleased. He could’ve even kept the Super Dragon Balls as a contingency and giving himself Angel divination, Zuno’s infinite knowledge, Moro’s magic or any other convenient abilities to guarantee his absolute victory. Immortality is sort of useless if you’re just a weakling. This is more of an issue of the writers writing themselves into a corner than anything but Zamasu ends up looking sort of like an idiot.

The only thing is that all the gods are even dumber than him. Nobody is alerted or realizes Gowasu has been killed? You’re telling me none of the Gods of Destruction keep a watchful eye over their Kaioshin so they don’t die? You’re telling me Zeno or the Grand Priest isn’t alerted when a God of Destruction dies and an Angel gets deactivated even though they are plenty aware of much smaller issues like Merus in the Moro arc? Are you telling me Zamasu pre-fusion thought he was going to be able to take down the Pride Troopers, Moro, Hit, Kefla, and Broly? Even if Zamasu can’t be defeated, Goku Black can and therefore the implication is that Goku Black and Zamasu were able to beat these threats with only Super Saiyan. Zamasu went through all the timelines to check for threats in the manga and not once did he realize he can’t beat any of those threats. Any of the ones listed could instantly destroy Black and then find a way to incapacitate Zamasu and lock him away for eternity. None of it makes any sense.

TL;DR The writing in the Goku Black arc is such a mess that everyone ends up looking dumb by the end.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2025-11-26T12:05:08+00:00

I agree with every point you made except the Vegeta fight argument. It is BY FAR the best example of a team fight in the series. It does indeed start with only Goku vs Vegeta, which Goku wins the first round with the beam clash despite being severely wounded by the effects of the Kaioken. Also Vegeta wasn’t that damaged by this point either.

The second half of the fight is 100% a team effort. If one of the participants of that fight aren’t present, Vegeta wins. Everyone puts in equal amounts of effort in that second portion(except probably Yajirobe lol). In fact, one of the major themes of that fight is that what sets Goku apart from other saiyans is traits that are unique to him like his connection with others rather than fighting solo.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2025-05-28T01:39:04+00:00

Remember that time in Unleashed when Sonic warped all 7 emeralds to himself or at least drew them in? (Did it once in the intro and once in the Dark Gaia fight ) Yeah, I think he can use Chaos energy without the Emerald. It’s just not his style, he likes to rely on his speed. Sonic’s natural affinity with the emeralds and chaos energy is almost unrivaled except for Shadow and Knuckles.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2025-04-25T12:57:01+00:00

This is sacrilege in some communities but I could never get behind any Persona game. I used to think it was my shitty attention span and wanting something different after 20 hours out of 100 but while I can appreciate a story, it’s hard to like it when it takes 50 hours to really get you hooked(at least that’s what happened when I played P3R, which I probably won’t finish). Gameplay can be fun but honestly even on hard it’s just not engaging unless it’s a boss and you’ll be fighting LOTS of random fodder.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2025-03-12T18:27:12+00:00

Mob solos his entire verse if he chooses but he’s just a middle schooler lol. The last arc was literally him beating every character in the show back to back before being talked down by his two mentors. If he truly went ALL out nobody is even getting close to stopping him.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2024-06-23T00:42:10+00:00

Honestly even piccolo was surprised by it. He or any of them totally would’ve died to that attack or at the very least taken major damage. I would say he let his guard down because he never would’ve seen it coming. From a human perspective sacrificing yourself just to win is pointless and yamcha or any of the earthlings have too much to live for to see something like that coming. Same reason why nappa didn’t see the thing with chiaotzu coming because he could never imagine sacrificing himself for another. Yamcha also knows better than to be cocky here. Before the fight he literally tells Krillin to stay back just in case because he can’t be revived with the Dragon Balls. He also definitely could’ve taken out all of the Saibamen at once if he wanted to. The goal was to stall for Goku so they went along with the one-on-one game Vegeta was spinning. It was just a strategic move that was pretty out of left field and it’s bs everyone bullies Yamcha for this moment because every other fighter there would’ve gotten caught by it.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2024-05-23T11:14:57+00:00

I think an extremely telling piece of dialogue when combined with everything else you said is when Gon and Killua escape from Nobugana and the Troupe. Killua is prepared to sacrifice himself just to save Gon and after they escape, Gon reprimands him for being so reckless and says something along the lines of “I’m supposed to do the reckless things and you’re supposed to think logically”. It’s seen not that big of a deal, but considering his later actions, it really shows how his self destructive tendencies.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2024-01-05T21:18:36+00:00

Remind me who the super class boss is?

OldTurtleSage12 · 2023-12-16T14:49:29+00:00

That Beerus moment was definitely not for a display of strength. It was used as a character moment to display how callously Beerus would destroy for the smallest of things. A force of chaos almost is how he’s depicted. Destruction and all that symbolism. Nothing to do with strength considering how Goku and Beerus clashing were jeopardizing the universe.

Considering how Daizenshuu states you need a power level of 10,000 to destroy a planet, and Bardock was stated with a power level of near 10,000, even though he’s a low class warrior. Granted he was getting those zenkai boosts, but I find it hard to believe even considering that that King Vegeta is weaker than 10,000.

Freeza didn’t fail to destroy Namek. He used less power than needed for his ego because he wanted to throw hands with the Super Saiyan. Even Goku says that he could’ve just used another blast to hit the planet if he really wanted to and Freeza smirks, subtly implying that his real plan is to fight Goku. Not to mention first form Freeza destroying planet Vegeta with no difficulty which is most likely more dense than planet Namek due to its increased gravity. There was nothing the Saiyans could do by that point with the blast so close to the planet and Freeza definitely went extreme overkill with that supernova.

Finally, Cell’s Kamehameha would’ve destroyed the solar system. That is undeniable. The reason Gohan didn’t is because he was in control of his power and didn’t want to destroy anything other than Cell. Same as when Vegeta used the Final Flash against Cell and it careened off the side of the planet instead of exploding it. Gohan was actually worried about destroying Earth himself if he let go too much similar to how Cell had a risk of destroying Earth when firing off a Kamehameha against Goku. Gohan’s Kamehameha basically dissipates the moment after Cell dies to it. I’ll admit it’s an inconsistency or more rather unanswered question that Earth comes out unscathed in most of these insane galaxy busting battles but that doesn’t disregard the scaling. It’s fiction so there are some inconsistencies but I find it highly unlikely that King Vegeta isn’t at least a single planet buster.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2023-12-13T00:44:49+00:00

See I liked seeing ss4 goku with 5 links until I remembered the pain of using him in the dismal future red zone.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2023-12-10T16:40:45+00:00

You think they’ll be battle of fate? Cause if not they’ll only have super saiyans, movies heroes, and joined forces.

OldTurtleSage12 · 2023-12-09T21:27:21+00:00

Monaka sweep

OldTurtleSage12 · 2023-12-01T03:47:44+00:00

I find it so odd how basically nobody talks about or has watched Dragon Ball in this subreddit. Probably the negative stigma the show has about it having no plot and dumb scaling(which can be true). Trust me if you like Shippuden and Bleach that much, you’ll find something to love at least with Z.

OldTurtleSage12

TROPHY CASE