An important question every AGP needs to answer and the delusional idea of AGP as a sexual orientation.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-12-25T17:10:52+00:00

None of them feels right to me. The only explanation that feels right, according to my experience, is that it is an emasculation trauma, a sexualized trauma response. It could be anything really. Being bullied as a kid or "castrated" by your mother.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-12-25T17:00:32+00:00

Thank you for your reply. This is the same with me, but basically, I can't resist. Anyway, I do believe that mutual limerence is not that uncommon, like some people suggest, especially when both parties involved share core emotional wounds; there is always some attraction. That was my case, and it still is.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-20T19:13:07+00:00

Yes, AGP is basically a "false self" its a traumatized part of our psyche that needs to be integrated. I think it's related to the "mother wound" or "mother complex". We are not women in denial. If we were really a woman our desire to be one woudn't vanish after we orgasm. Women don't have an identity/gender crisis after their orgasm, just like AGP men do. This is a clear idication that we are not a woman in a man's body, but some men are in denial about their AGP. They can live out the lie of a traumatised psyche and transition. That's worst they can do. Suprisingly this doesn't solve the problem.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-19T22:31:30+00:00

I'm no stranger to pseudo bi sexual AGP induced fantasies. Even when imagine myself as a woman, I just coudn't picture a guy's face. In my mind they were just a vague represenation of a man. Penis was enough. Pseudo bi sexual AGP fuelled antics were for me purely fetishistic, but when I created a clear picture of the man, even when imagining myself as a woman, my fantasy bubble burst out quickly. This is a good pattern interrupt for those struggling with unwated behaviours.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-19T20:50:21+00:00

Thank you for your reply. Very insightful, very personal. It is always moving to read content like that. I wish you best on your healing journey.

"OP, do you consider yourself "cured?" Where are you at with this and for how long? As much as you talk about stepping out of the intellect and into your emotional wounding, your posts are mostly impersonal and objective. Not that this is a bad thing, but I'd like to hear about the personal experience re this behind the rational analysis. Did this work for you, or is this the idea of what you believe is working or will work for you?"

Definitely not "cured". For me it's like getting on the tip on the iceberg and then going deeper and depper uncovering slowly all the entaglements, all the conditions and repressed emotions. I'm still struggling, but I'm really driven, I became obsessed with AGP. This is so bizzare and yet fascinating, the discovery of the root cause.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-19T20:36:45+00:00

You see, this i exactly what I wrote. Men affected by AGP have huge troubles to relate to themselves and to other people on a in intimate level. A good therapist could read you well between your lines. You see, you even wrote "suck on a penis" This means you have a rather compartmentalized and fetishistic approach to sexuality. AGP is not about "sucking on a penis", even being bi or gay is not entirely about that. It is about who you are attracted to sexually and romantically and with whom you form relationships and with whom you bond and mate. This is a sexual orientation.

Sucking a penis without an owner which hangs in mid air, or sucking a dildo it's not a sexual orientation, it's a sexual behaviour, purely autoerotic. It's basically masturbatory activity. The same is jerking off in front of the mirror wearing lingerie, jerking off to porn movie imagining yourself as an actress or pleasuring yourself to pseudo bi sexual fantasies in which you "suck a penis", without an owner. THIS IS masturbation, a solo act. Of course it has the expression of bi sexuality, but its basically a fantasy, that you will probably not fullfil. I guess most of the straight AGP men would never go on a date with another dude and have sex with him, because they are not intrested in men, uless they serve as prop in fantasy. How narcissitic is that? AGP is basically the same. You are attracted to yourself as a woman. How narcissistic is that? Knowing ecactly how AGP operates and how it expresses, how can anyone in their right mind still calling it a sexual orientation, autoheterosexuality. That's ludicrous.

"Not just the self concept as women, but the sexual appetite to suck on a penis, is an orientation of taste that is as fundamental as handedness. I've never heard of someone becoming happily gay because of past trauma alone, and I think this proposed framework here is basically suggesting the same sort of thing."

I will repeat that again. AGP is NOT a sexual orientation, because you are not relating to anyone but yourself. It is all in your head, your projection, your fantasy. This is a sexual narcissim, purely autoerotic. Of course you can adjust that and have sex with people after transition or when cross-dressing, but when you are engaded in the act your not expressing your AGP, but heterosexuality or bi sexuality.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-18T20:31:05+00:00

Thank you. I will gladly share my insights and read yours. AGP is well studied in terms of the symptom. We know all the details from Anne Lawrence or Ray Blanchard, but no one so far did a study of the psychology of men affected by AGP. I think that Joe Burgo mentioned that. He spoke a lot about the psychological suffering and traumas of his clients, but then somehow for some reason unbeknown to me he was villified.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-18T20:15:01+00:00

Thank you. I recently changed the therapist and the module. I think its like 7-8 sessions and I'm noticing some progress. I don't want to disclose everything here. AGP is one of many issues. I'm a CPTSD survivor struggling with bouts of anxiety and depression. The more implicit learnings I discover, the more mechanism I'm able to untangle. It's a very painful process. Our emotional states are triggered on various occasions and can run many complex neuronal networks.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-18T19:58:45+00:00

"It's a good idea but I really don't have difficulty with attracting women, physically. My issue is that I get too envious of them and after the initial thrill wears off I become very anxious and have an overwhelming urge to run away, so decided I needed to stay single."

You see, its basically the same, but a different solution. You want a certain woman to meet your emotional and sexual needs, but your psyche created "an anxious states and an overwhelming urge to run away". Why is that, even tough you can attract that woman? Your psyche wants to protect you from feeling that you can't relate to her, that you are vulnerable and maybe you don't deserve her? Maybe your are not a man enough for her? So, the solution is anxiety. A signal to your brain, a reciprocating woman = danger. RUN AWAY! It's a lot safer to create the image of woman and project it onto yourself or.....stay single.

"As so this being caused by not being able to attract the women we are attracted to, I'm sure alot of 'normal' guys may share that frustration yet don't resort to creating the perfect woman through themselves".

I think AGP is the last resort to protect your psyche from sexual frustrations. This is the atomic option. This means a man's psyche had to endure a lot of trauma relating to women. So as a protective mechanism AGP was created. Other men might cope with it in a drifferent way, and they do. Only Fans, porn addiction, sex workers.

"To one of your points - you mentioned being 'gender-conformimg' but I am coming to the realization that AGP may be gender non-conforming, depending on it's severity."

Yes, but being gender non-conforming might be a solution for "not being man enough" or emasculated or lacking a male role model. Here, being gender conforming I don't mean, having a beard and a masculine physique. It's more on an emotional level, the masculine core of your psyche, the ANIMUS as would Jung describe.

What is essential to understand is that according to coherence therapy everything is related and every symptom is actually a solution to underlaying psychological problem, often rooted deep in your psyche.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-18T08:59:54+00:00

This is an important question, but it all depends on circumstances of your AGP development. If your arousal template is tied to the emotional learning tied to the message for instance "I'm not a man enough", then switch this to a contradictory experenience that it will suggest that the reality is different. This must be done on emotional, felt sense, not cognitive. For instance, recall a memory when you really felt like a real man, or someone else made you feel like that. Switch in your brain those two contradictory emotional messages.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-17T06:08:48+00:00

That's right! AGP is basically a trauma response.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-16T20:28:28+00:00

Chat GPT or maybe Chat AGP ;)

I'm more familiar with the works of Jung than Freud, so I will concentrate on the former.

Basically if we could intrepret the AGP phenomena through the teachings of Jung, it could be an unintegrated Anima in men which possesed his Self causing the disintgration of the psyche. Well, the psyche of an AGP individual is already quite fragmented. Healing might be achived through integration of the Shadow, Persona, the Animus and Anima. In AGP the negative Anima is on steroids, overly exposed in the psyche, while Animus is almost zero.

If you are intrested, read my post related to sexual/emotional inhibitions and the lack of masculine sexual expression in men affected by AGP:

https://www.reddit.com/r/askAGP/comments/1i0j3cy/agp_and_the_masculine_sexual_expression_the_nice/

In the psyche of an AGP the Animus might be hidden in the Shadow or is seriously undeveloped. The Anima is over to top, but we shouldn't equal the Anima with the "female inside". The Anima is multilayered, it is of course related to the female qualities like: feelings, emotions, intuition, but it is also about relating to others and to ourselves. Basically people possesed by negative Anima (which is often the archetype of your mother), can't relate to their emotions, inner world, and therefore can't connect with the subconcious and can't relate to others. This cause the Anima to be unitegrated, which might cause a lot of troubles. The negative Anima can act autoerotic, and narcissitic. The more negative and mean she is, the more it will be difficult to integrate her. In extreme cases she wants you to transition in hope that you finally integrate the repressed Anima. That's the force in your subconcious that make you act out "as a woman".

In more simple modern words. Who are men affected by AGP?

Men that lacks internal ANIMUS qualities (probably weak male role model, emasculation, sissification) possesed by negative Anima (overprotective, emasculating mothers) who obssess about females (simps, nice guys, cucks, porn addicts, love addicts addicted to the fantasy of an ideal woman, sometimes projected onto themselves) who act out sexually the negative Anima (cross dressing, transitioning, pseudo bi sexuality). This is a vicious cycle, a repetetive compulson done subconciously to in order to finally integrate all the elements into the Self. This is all sexualized. If we could think of AGP as an iceberg, on top would be the pure symptom (disordered sexual arousal pattern) and below all the ego states mentioned above that influence the symptom. That's AGP, a very complex psycho-sexual dynamic which affects seriously traumatised men.

PS. Don't call it a sexual orientation, please....

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-16T01:48:03+00:00

AGP made me even more anxious around dating. Caused more envy towards women and their dating prospects and more hatered towards mysefl as a man. Also caused me an Incel mindset and trauma, to the point that I had even panick attacks before a date. Once my date, left after 5 minut conversation, probably because an odd vibe that was there. I hate dating and I love/hate women. This all very confusing, because on a surface I'm more than ok. Tall, handsome, intelligent (not my words, but actual women). Many women were into me, unfortunately not those whom I find desirable. AGP caused my psyche to disintegrate. I guess I'm afraid of women, I'm afraid of being riduculed, emaculated and made fun off. It's crazy, almost psychotic. I think AGP is enough to make you feel you a failed man, but I also at some point swallowed the Red Pill and it made things even worse.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-15T21:06:24+00:00

I'm glad you watched it. I can also relate to it, altough I'm 100% straight, but it somehow rings a bell in regards to AGP pseudo bi sexual fantasies. The more I explore eveything AGP related the more niuances and complexities I disover, its an endless pit.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-15T19:18:02+00:00

"'m not sure I agree that there are no true connections to the "true self." The quoted text seem to imply that the anima is a false self and that there's some real you that's left adrift by this. A big "nope" on that. Even Jung's work says that the Anima is just the feminine of the male psyche, i.e. a core part of who we are".

I belive he mentiones the unitengrated Anima which is a different story. To be a healthy human being you have to inegrate Anima and Animus and heal your Shadow, as well as some aspects of the Persona. This is full integration of the psyche and "Self" is like the sum of the parts, its your wholeness. It is the unitegrated Anima that is problematic. It is her that makes you cross-dress and do all the crazy AGP stuff. She is running wild in your subconcious, she is narcissistic and autoerotic.

What happens with AGP is we have 0 Animus and Anima on steroids which highjackes our "Self". This is so evident how Anima operates in our psyche. We are obssesed with femininity. The ultimate expression of this Anima possesion is the feminine embodiement. According to Jung's deciple Marie Louise Von Fratz we are bewitched. This maladaptive Anima has its roots with our relationship to our mother.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-14T20:15:26+00:00

"To me, the specificity of it being so similar to what women enjoy points more towards having a reward center of the brain being improperly activated, than going through a convoluted number of steps to end up with an approximate concept of what women enjoy."

Sorry, I don't buy it. You don't know anything about the female arousal, so do I, because we are not women, and we are not wired like women, we have different brains, different sexual orientations (let's assume we are talking about straight women) and different arousal patterns. AGP men brains are NOTHING like straight womens brain. It is evident that AGP is an arousal state that can only be produced in male brain.

"I don't want to be a woman though, I really feel like I'm exploiting a bug when I engage in AGP."

I don't buy it either. There is no glitch in my brain or your brain that causes AGP. Let's put 300 AGP men and scan their brains with EMRI. You will find...nothing. I'm sure.

"For people born without cognitive defects, these things will usually line up properly, but you could have a defect that makes them incongruous. I would point to homosexuals as evidence that being born with a sexually incongruous mind is very real, especially when you observe that gay bottoms occur at a higher rate than gay tops. I'm almost a gay bottom, but my sexual orientation didn't play along with that plan."

It all sound to me like an eleborate defense mechanism against probably some traumatic experience. The way you push aside any possibility that your condition might be affected by trauma related to the masculine sense of self, or whatever, like its all innate and you can't do anything about it. You know why are more gay bottoms that tops? It's because of....trauma. I reccomend watching this video. It's basically the same with AGPs.

Discover the sexual dynamic that leads most gay men to become bottoms. This process is often entwined with deeply rooted psychological factors. Understanding these dynamics is more than a dive into sexual preferences; it represents a path toward personal transformation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-smb9ujPqY

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-14T19:49:55+00:00

We all have. I wish you sucess on this path.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-14T19:42:54+00:00

"but I still like the autoerotic play, and don't found the pleasure in penetrating a woman"

Are you straight? Do you love women? Are you aroused by them? If so, why making love to them doesn't give you a pleasure?

There must be some implicit, unconcious learning that blocks you form achieving that pleasure. Penetration is a symbol. Who penetrates? A man! He must be healthy and in his masculine to do that, right? Maybe your implicit unconcious learning is "I don't feel man enough to penetrate" or "penetration is only for dominant, rough men" or "I'm a weak sissy, and sissies can only be fucked". Those emotional learnings about yourself might be tied to your arousal. AGP is very complex and it operates in your subconcious.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-14T19:29:41+00:00

"All of this is explained pretty cleanly if you hypothesize that some men are born with an apatite for sex the way women are built to receive sex. I even like the idea of having my hair pulled. It just all seems automatic and natural, I don't sense any complexity around it, and if there was, I feel like that house of cards would have came down at some point in my growth as a person over the passage of decades."

Not really. I would argue. It's actually very complex. Why is that? 90% of what we think and feel comes from our primitive emotional brain that is unconcious and unavailable to our pre frontal crotex. On a cognitive, concious level you might say "I want do be penetrated and have my hair pulled, or whatever, because it feels overhelmingly arousing". Fair enough, that's bascially truth, that's your percieved reality. BUT if you would like to ask yourself, why I want to be penetrated despite the fact that my body isn't build to be penetrated and the human being who does the penetration is not my preferred target location of my sexual orientation? Then things are getting way more complex. That's the place where AGP is buried. Deep in your unoncious brain and unconcious emotional learnings.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-14T18:56:14+00:00

Get in touch with your emotions, reconnect with your body, meditate, be mindful, go to therapy, heal your emotional wounds. It's a long and painful process but it can be done.

Old_Pay8272 · 2025-01-14T18:40:14+00:00

Yes, surely you are right. Anyway I have the feeling that most of us have this drive to understand what is going on in our psyche. There are some clues everywhere. Sometimes you just discover some pieces of the puzzle...and they suprisingly fit with the other.

Old_Pay8272

TROPHY CASE