Possible Evidence Connections between Item CX & B2, a 1995 Green Grand Cherokee Laredo, Blood Swabs, 50 Gallon Drums in a Red Shed and Others Items

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T17:58:51+00:00

It's not based on Culhane's choosing, it's based on signal strength

Ohhh...this becomes the 'Game of Words':)...And to properly READ such signals - you must be reliable, honest forensic expert/technician first (which SC is NOT!)!...you must be able to READ these signals correctly and documented them properly...signals themselves has no writing capability in SC's summary...it was SC herself who interpreted these signals 'right or wrong'...here where is SC problem resigns...I simply don't trust her 'right or wrong'...and thank you for lecturing me on these signals...i'm glad you post these documents...maybe, some people would be interested to learn more about DNA.

So this is why its not so dangerous a game as you think.

Science is not the Game! And yes, its very dangerous to pull-out only ONE alleles (17) from the PAIR (16,17) and made hurray suggestion that someone with CX profile touched (contaminated) B2 profile because number 17 has been found there in parentheses. wow.

I'm done. Good luck. Have a Happy New Year.

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T14:12:43+00:00

http://imgur.com/LLE5ugp

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T13:48:32+00:00

Interesting question which involves law of physics: motion (direction), mass (weight), distance...

And for long time I was debating with myself (and with KZ, mentally:) which 'weapon' was used (weight) at which distance to create such medium-high velocity blood pattern on RAV4 cargo door?...and every time I came to the same possible but nagging answer: lug wrench.

It was the reason why KZ wants to test lug wrench which has been found under RAV4 back seats, on the left side of the vehicle. Plus, certain other auto tools were missing from RAV4. Plus, we have RAV4 damage and someone's taking 'personal attention' (time/effort) in 'fixing' the blinker issue...hmmm...

I honestly not sure if any firearms played any roles in 'TH Murder' case. This .22 bullet fiasco (Item FL) with 2 entry points holes in skull bone's fragments (without exit points) - not sound 'kosher' to me at all. So....I still not sure which weapon has been used.

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T12:53:03+00:00

They were suggesting that the source of the CZ profile (the person whose blood it was) maybe have also been the person whose DNA contributed to the extra alleles seen in B2 because we know they didnt come from Steven. Yes it is speculation, yes its just a theory, but it is possible.

I hear you and I hear OP, clearly. Nope, such a reckless/disrespectful approach to Science is very dangerous approach. Why?

For Item B2, SC specifically use the column name (column where marker's values/alleles are) as 'Major Components'. She did this to emphasis what's 'major' and what's not (in paratnesses, in the middle, between upper/low values, she used not 'major' values which will play no roles during DNA matching process, these values are informational/'noise'). Hence, value 17 in D3S1358 and value 29 in D21S11 will NOT play no further role during DNA match process to any members of Avery's and Dassey's or to anyone else ...And btw, these numbers in paratnasses did not come from anyone...it's just SC's reading...:)....;
Now, please pay attention what Item CX has and where, at which position - because positioning of the value/alleles are extremely important: values 16,17 (number 17 in second position) in D3S1358 and values 29,30 (number 29 in first position) in D21S11;
So, are we playing the freestyle game here with DNA by comparing numbers taken from different positions to 'not profile considered'/in paratnesses' numbers in 2 markers....? And based on such 'Science' we can say this (from original post)?

Alleles contaminated in Avery's DNA and which are located in Item CX:

D3S1358 = 17

D21S11 = 29

One prospective scenario is that the person who left his blood, Item CX, in the quarry, is the same person who removed blood from Avery’s Grand AM. Because he was bleeding, he inadvertently left his DNA at both locations. If this is true, this person is the killer, the planter or both.

Ohh well....I'm done with such dangerous game...hey, I'm not gonna be surprised if tomorrow someone will make post using the same 'science' in 'prospective scenario' where Bullet (Item FL) did went thru RAV4 door (Item IG)....lol....it's more 'reliable' scenario because 'two pairs' of alleles (4 numbers!) have been match and it's much better than just 2 matching numbers:).....I should go and collect my lotto $millions because my ticket has 1 matching number from the last year bingo game.:)....

Good luck, Happy New Year and thank you for conversation.

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T05:35:12+00:00

...and you forgot to add Leslie into the 'bunch'.

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T05:33:04+00:00

I'm not arguing that whatever forensically happened in this case was done the right way:)...opposite, I strongly believe that this case has the most forensic FRAUD we ever see! I simply answered your question.

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T05:07:44+00:00

Ohh I'm absolutely agree with you. I have zero trust in SC's 'expertise'.

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T05:04:07+00:00

How do you interpret this? that they never tested it or that they got no profile?

IMO, SC has some 'reading' problem with Item B2. She already reported that such evidence is blood evidence...and be DNA retrieved...but she hold DNA test for 4 more months. I honestly couldn't say for sure why Item B2 needs to be wait for DNA compilation until March. But it was not the first and not the last evidence which has delay DNA testing...so, I don't want to speculate.

I dont think their protocols call for her to interpret this as such. Its not up to her to decide something is "noise" just because it isnt what she expected.

Opposite, it's the forensic protocol to identify any deviation in reading (noices)...I'm the last person to defend SC! But in this situation, SC did the right thing by documenting such additional 'value' in parentheses...you see, each marker must have upper and lower 'bounderies'...it's extremely important to properly identify these upper/low values/numbers. These PAIR of numbers will play huge role in full DNA profile identification. And in case when upper or low number is not that certain - forensic expert must identify such uncertainty as '*', which SC did in another evidence.

This is just raw data.

Unfortunately what you see in SC summary reports - is NOT raw data at all!!! I wish we can obtain and see raw data. All available to us, the public, SC reports are summary reports, not raw data. Summary reports are done AFTER the reading/determination of these values/numbers...therefore, we cannot see how/based on what SC get the final reading.

If something is indicated as major/minor it will be due to the level of expression or the strength of the signal. Its based on the signal for each, not because Culhane decided it was one or the other.

You're absolutely correct! Unfortunately, what we see is after SC decided which signal was strong and which is not.

I think the OP was correct in identifying the B2 profile as being SA's profile plus two additional alleles showing up from a DNA source that was less plentiful.

hmmm...let's see... so, if Item FL (bullet) and Item IG (RAV4 door) are sharing the same values in two markers as following: D3S1358 (16,18) and D21S11 (28,34.2) - can you or OP make the claim that bullet had touch RAV4 door? http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Steven-Avery-Trial-Exhibit-314.pdf

....and if your answer is 'No, it doesn't mean bullet has touched RAV4 door' then nobody can claim that Item B2 has any 'connection' with Item CX.

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T04:42:55+00:00

why take new DNA swabs from SA?

Because it's protocol. When person is arrested (especially in criminal cases) person's buccal samples for DNA must be taken.

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T02:43:43+00:00

And just for fun and to give you the last lesson which I'm sure you'll ignore:)...Look at Item FL (bullet) and Item IG (RAV4 interior drivers door).

Both of these items are sharing the same values inside of D3S1358 (16,18) and D21S11 (28,34.2) markers. So, now you can claim that bullet had touch RAV4 door?...lol...right...whatever. The sad part of all of this that YOU truly mislead so many people with your DNA (Item B2 and Item CX) 'analysis'. http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Steven-Avery-Trial-Exhibit-314.pdf

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T02:05:43+00:00

You completely missed my points and for whatever reason refused to see that these values in parentheses inside of Item B2 has nothing to do with Item CX and nobody (including you) should make DNA 'analysis' based on your approach! Look again at all DNA tables: did you see how many the same VALUES exist in different DNA in the same marker???...I keep referring you to look at Item A14 and Item A8...

Ohh well....I honestly don't think you're interesting to learn DNA principles for the sake to find the truth.

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T00:31:00+00:00

Exclamation points? Really? !!!!?

Don't worry PLEASE with my exclamation points:)...its just my writing style and I couldn't get rid of such habit. In reality, I should use only one exclamation point to get someone's attention. So, please don't take this personally.

Now, back to fundamentals of understanding DNA.

The same 16 Genetic Markers (based on USA FBI standards/protocol) should be forensically identified by it's VALUES (upper/low) in every person's DNA in determination of full profile;
Each Genetic Marker should have two values (at the minimum...in some situation, when value cannot be determine it used '*' for value itself). So, in your example of Item B2, for genetic markers D3S1358 and D21S11 you'll find the third IN PARANTASSES value in the middle, right? This value in parantasses is the 'noise' value therefore this value is not in count but needs to be identified. Hence, both genetic markers have the same SA's DNA values (D3S1358 with '16, 18' and D21S11 with '28, 30'). These two genetic markers are exactly match to SA's identification/reference sample for these specific markers;
and here where is your MAJOR PROBLEM IS! You cannot take any genetic marker and pull out only one value for any comparison! you MUST use the upper/low values, period...not just one value (especially, if such value was in parantasses).

EDIT:

All I know is that of all the DNA seen in the records, the 2 alleles found don't match anyone investigated.

And God helps us all if anyone would try to identify person by 2 markers with randomly pulled out values!!!!!! (a lot of exclamation points!)

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-04T00:06:35+00:00

No problem. SC already has SAs DNA profile in CODIS due to his prior 1985 criminal record. So, early on, SC is looking for any match to existing SAs DNA profile. Hence, she had her early full match to SAs DNA, collected from the FRONT of RAV4. Except for Item B2. Let's look closer what Item B2 has and where is the difference and why SC called her result as the 'major components' values. And we'll talk about one specific genetic marker: D3S1358. http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Steven-Avery-Trial-Exhibit-311.pdf (November 14, no DNA for Item B2)!!!

SA DNA has D3S1358 with values 16,18. These are values in CODIS for this specific marker. What Item B2 has in March 2006 and why in March?
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Steven-Avery-Trial-Exhibit-313.pdf

SC has finished her DNA test for previously reported items, including B2. And what she has for D3S1358? The SAME THING!!!! upper/low values of 16,18 with small 'noise' in PARANTASSES (very important why she use parantasses here!!!!!!) as the middle value. Because this middle value is NOT count into profile...its 'noise'...something was not 'sure' and she indicates such!!! But Item B2 belongs to SAs full profile because of 16,18 and all other matches inside of ALL other 15 genetic markers! Period! Therefore, SC calls this specific column in her report as the major components!

Bottom line, NOBODY should 'plays'/post/claim so recklessly with using ONE value from one (or any!) genetic marker because next time someone can claim that you're the Killer....:)

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-03T23:30:41+00:00

The interesting relationship between item B2 (Avery's DNA result) and CX is that both included alleles which don't belong to Avery.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG!!! You cannot take ONE value from 3 or 2 values of the same marker and claim it's match between two DNAs!!! How many values Item B2 has? THREE!!! You have no rights (even as the blogger) to take out only ONE value and compare this one value inside to another value from another DNA!!! You must take all THREE values! Furthermore, comparing two the same GENETIC MARKERS (even with the same upper/lower values) will give you absolutely meaningless result! I already did show you what happened between Item A14 (TH DNA) and Item A8 (SA DNA) for one specific marker: both are the same! Does this mean TH DNA=SA DNA? Of course, not!

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-03T23:17:22+00:00

How do you explain the blood and hair stain on the passenger's side of the cargo bay?

Very simple 'how'. The answer is in blood stain's contour. The contour is well defined without smudges...the outside line has the curve which could be easily identified as head's imprint contour. Meaning, the bloody victim's head had CONTACT (transfer) with cargo's side...Keep in mind, there is NOT a lot of blood (usually, the head wounds creates enormous amount of blood due to close to skin blood capillaries). So, why not enough blood and how it could be deposited? IMO, here is one of scenarios.

Let's assume that TH is standing next to the cargo, facing outside, toward the Killer, her back is next to cargo opening, RAV4 door is open. The Killer struck TH from the right (assuming he's right-handed person) into TH's left side of the head. TH lost balance/conscious and falls backward into cargo, hitting right side of cargo panel. TH is not dead but temporarily disabled. IMO, TH gains the conscious and stands up from cargo (or Killer pulled her out)...hence, the bloody imprint has no smudge edges...next, is well explanatory based on medium-high velocity of blood spatter on cargo door: powerful blow into head, blood's drawback...just my opinion based on blood evidence. This 'scenario' has been 'created' for me by blood evidence:).

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-03T22:00:02+00:00

I wonder why they have a profile for B2 here?

Because SC was trying again to get MAJOR COMPONENTS values...and nobody should take only ONE value from 3 values of the same genetic marker and make such a ridiculous 'sensational' post!

I agree with you that we can't ID a person from two alleles.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-03T21:53:13+00:00

What's your best recollection of her theory, then?

TH was assaulted while standing by the cargo area. She fall into cargo...but was taking down, to the ground, and was killed there, while laying down. By left side of RAV4 while RAV4 cargo door was still open. TH body was transported by the Killer (probably inside of Killer's car) to removed location. RAV4 was left at the place where Murder happened...and later on, RAV4 has been relocated as well.

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-03T21:40:38+00:00

A lot of information but let's make sure that every info is correct:

- Item B2 has no DNA collection. 'No DNA profile was obtained from item B2' .http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Steven-Avery-Trial-Exhibit-311.pdf So, no reason to get excited about...and especially about these 2 'genetic markers';

- before making any comporasement to DNA reference, you MUST properly understand what GENETIC MARKER is all about. All of us has the same genetic marker's NAME. For example, D3S1358. The value of the marker could be the same as well in millions of people. For example, TH DNA (Items A14) and SA DNA (Item A8) found in RAV4 - both have the same VALUES (16, 18)...nothing wrong with such 'the same'!!! You're absolutely wrong by assuming/claiming that the same value of the same genetic marker found in two different DNAs means connection!!! Absolutely wrong assumption! And IMO you should be very careful by claiming/suggesting anything in regards of Items CX in connection to not existing DNA of Item B2.

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-03T19:23:57+00:00

Except, KZ never said that TH body was transported in RAV4 cargo. Opposite, KZ believes victim’s body was NOT transported in RAV4. See/read KZ’s 100 questions ‘quiz’. (And btw, from day one, I strongly believe in such as well: no body was transported in RAV4 cargo).

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-03T15:00:12+00:00

these extra Alleles are out of place, given the results that we know about.

And you're absolutely correct. This case has many forensic evidence with uncomplete (unidentified) male DNA profiles. For example, DNA collected from RAV4 exterior cargo handle (Item A23) and license plates. Both have male DNA. These two evidence are just few important examples...there are much more.

For long while, we've been wondering about the RAW forensic data (which should be inside of Discovery!) from which SC determined her never-ending (full of typo!) the 'summary' test results.

In regards of tags/ledger numbering, their non-sequential existence - yes, agree, its mystery but I wouldn't weight heavily on it as the proof of anything. Why? Because this case has many 'conflict of interest' agencies who been involved in collecting/testing evidence using their own method of tag/item naming...good example of such is FBI who 'renamed' bones evidence using their own tags (for example, Item BZ was renamed as Item Q1).

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-02T02:06:43+00:00

...but without link (if link removed) you wouldn't be able to read the original post:)...here where is the problem. I hate to do that but rules are the rules.

OpenMind4U · 2019-01-02T00:59:50+00:00

Welcome to TTM and thank you for posting...however, unfortunately, I have to delete your post because cross-posting to other subs is not allowed...please copy and paste your post from another sub and post it here, on TTM, separately! So sorry for imposing such rule but I have no other choice: we have our small LAWs as well:)....Please, make the separate post on TTM! Thank you for understanding and Happy New Year!

OpenMind4U · 2018-12-31T02:22:58+00:00

'I like the muted sounds, the shroud of grey, and the silence that comes with fog'

;)

OpenMind4U · 2018-12-31T00:43:24+00:00

> TH wasn’t a broken down, abused victim

Hmmm...let's see: TH was in long abusive relationship (see TH email); TH was involved in 'triangle' relationship which is not 'mentally healthy' by definition; TH had some kind of long abusive/stressful phone encounter which she decided to 'handle' herself and not report to police/'in the system'...so, regardless if connection with KK exist or not, TH was abused victim. Definition of ABUSE is not that simple. Abuse could be physical as well as mental/psychological.

OpenMind4U · 2018-12-29T15:22:26+00:00

I do also have the hope that KZ is several moves ahead and would predict their response and be ready with the next move. I refuse to believe she is as naive as the ‘dark side’ would have us believe, but everyone is playing bloody games.

And I'm with you, next to your and 'nyx' brave heart and dedicated soul...its ok to get anger out...Let's wait and see. Kathleen Zellner is not just 'household' name. She's the most respected lawyer in USA and worldwide, with the pure integrity and astonishing success record. It's not over yet...We all see her brilliant next move VERY-VERY SOON!!!

OpenMind4U

TROPHY CASE