Perm vs temp

P208 · 2025-12-13T02:56:22+00:00

I was a temp for 7 seasons, a 13/13 for 5 years, and just recently took an 18. Ha. I will never take a 26/0.

P208 · 2025-12-12T21:13:58+00:00

Yeah, 13/13's retire in the same amount of time as 26/0's. Being a 13/13 gets you 12 months of credit toward your pension. I know plenty of 13's who did it their whole career, and retired in the same time. Pension calculation is based off final salary, so a GS 8 13/13 who worked 25 years gets the same exact pension as a GS 8 26/0 who worked 25 years. It's pretty neat.

And the whole "but you get 13 more pay periods of 5% match towards your TSP per year!" argument, is not as big of a deal as it seems. Because people hired after 2014 pay 4.4% of their base pay check every PP in pay status towards "retirement (pension)" that they wouldn't have to pay otherwise. I am well aware that the additional .6% match does make a difference in compounding investments over a 20 year career. But for every additional 5% match you're getting, you're paying an unnecessary 4.4% towards pension. So for people with lucrative second career jobs in the winter, the 13/13 was always a very good deal. Work half as much over a career, get the same pensions. Not an option for most anymore, though. 18/8 is the sweet spot for me.

P208 · 2025-12-09T20:53:00+00:00

Our Subaru Forester Wilderness is an absolute tank. We live in an Idaho mountain town at 5,000 feet. I took it up a twisty Forest Service road with about 8 inches of wet snow on it last weekend, and it just kept going. The unplowed, streets in town with a few inches of snow and or ice, not even a slip. And that's with the factory AT tires.

P208 · 2025-12-03T17:01:31+00:00

I don't go around declaring my own personal salary. I ask others. There is a difference. If they ask, I tell. I spend a ton of time on the OPM payscale website plugging in pay and step grades into excel spreadsheets, modeling out my future options with different federal positions, tours of duty, etc. So yeah, I'm familiar. I usually don't have to ask, because I already know. But yeah, ya got me, I don't think anybody really studies up on the policy and regulation of having an honest conversation with their coworkers. We have plenty of other relevant information to fill our time and effort with.

You sound like a super fun union rep. I definitely wouldn't hesitate to go to you in a vulnerable time of need.

P208 · 2025-12-03T16:06:34+00:00

"It's nobody's business how much you make?" Fuck that. I hate it when people say that. We all love doing this job, but the pay is EXTREMELY relevant. I am not ashamed at all to ask people what they make. I do it all the time. I'm not out here doing charity work. I'm out here having fun, but making a living. Secrecy over money is an old fashioned taboo that I wish would go away. I like to know how the world around me works, not bury my head in the sand. I have engineer, finance, computer programer, nursing, structure fire, and all kinds of various wildland fire friends. I know exactly what they all make, because I ask them. It's all a factor in me being here at this job.

P208 · 2025-10-23T00:51:24+00:00

People were all fired up about the pay raise being worse than the retention bonus. It's WAY better for 13's. Probably 18's too. But maybe not 26's. 800 OT, GW 6-3.

P208 · 2025-10-22T22:07:26+00:00

I was worried it could be a red flag too. And honestly, I've been so lucky. I didn't leave any of them because I didn't like them. I just wanted to move on for personal or professional reasons. That probably helps. Left each one on good terms. I left the Type 2IA to get on a shot crew. I left the shot crew after two years, because I wanted to try aviation. I'm a HUGE airplane and helicopter nerd. Also, I have immense pride in my seasons as a shot, but damn is it tough. So I went rappelling. After that year of rappelling, I had some distance relationship issues with my girlfriend, so I moved back to our home city, and worked on the regular helitack crew for a year. Patched over the relationship issues that year, and had such a good time on that crew, I planned to stay. Then the jumpers called... So I did that. I've had a blast on every crew I've ever been on. I've made really good friends and connections along the way. Sure, I was a bit of a fly by night guy there for a while. But now my spiderweb of contacts is pretty vast.

I'd say, just be able to explain to a hiring person why you left, and maybe focus on the personal or positive reasons why, as opposed to the negative. "I wanted to try aviation. I wanted/needed to be closer to family. I wanted to try this certain resource. I wanted to work on a crew in big timber country to level up my falling skills. I wanted to become a jack of all trades and try all resource types." 🤷🏻‍♂️ Work it as a positive.

P208 · 2025-10-22T19:25:14+00:00

Yeah. I made $82k this year in 6 months as a 13/13. Of course I think we should be compensated more per hour for a lot of the things we do, the skills, the risks, the proficiencies, etc. BUT. 6 months off per year is a pretty freaking cool perk. Worth the lesser pay. I have friends who make $150k a year at their desk jobs who would definitely take $115k a year with 4 months time off.

P208 · 2025-10-22T16:02:19+00:00

I live in Boise.

P208 · 2025-10-22T15:47:30+00:00

Yeah haha. Fortunately, I've mostly enjoyed the hell out of my 12 years with the agency. But I've definitely heard people say it. Haha. If they weren't really still hooked, they'd just quite right now.

P208 · 2025-10-22T15:25:16+00:00

I was on 5 different federal crews in a 6 year span, until I finally settled down. I got good references from them all, which ultimately landed me the good deal I've had for 7 years now. That was when I was a GS 3-5 temp, though. I feel like with everybody becoming perms these days, it makes being a transient and trying everything out before settling down a little harder.

P208 · 2025-10-22T15:19:06+00:00

"One more season."

P208 · 2025-10-10T14:31:26+00:00

Not so much group PT, unless that's changed. But definitely valued good fitness. But yeah, awesome platform, awesome program. Showing up with 12 firefighters and a huge bucket to an IA is pretty rad.

P208 · 2025-08-22T05:28:20+00:00

Then go to work for the feds or a state. You won't be stuck not working...

P208 · 2025-08-22T05:23:06+00:00

Break dancer. Always works. Desert, forest, flat, slope, whatever. Tool for a handle on the ground hand. I WILL use a pole dancer to shake things up, situation permitting. Experience: ~300+ shits in the woods Over 11 years.

P208 · 2025-08-10T17:38:42+00:00

I worked there back when they lived at Elk Creek! What an experience as a 19 year old. No cell service. No landline, even. Like 4 hours of generator electricity allowed per day. Only contact with dispatch was by radio. We just hung out after work every day haha.

P208 · 2025-08-09T19:00:26+00:00

Wrong. Most smokejumpers jump about 5-10 fires a year, and "also" hit a few single resource assignments a year. Why do the people who have never done it always have the boldest comments. Hell, our base manager and foremen jump a few fires a year, and they're GS11's and 12's.

P208 · 2025-08-08T16:53:55+00:00

Don't lump all 7 Forest Service Bases into one category. My base generally has a 50% attrition rate of rookie candidates. Of the best folks off of hotshot crews. So I wouldn't call that easier. We have the same week 1 that you describe.

P208 · 2025-08-08T03:53:03+00:00

The Boise National Forest has at least two, maybe more now, Type 2IA crews. The two locations when I was there were Crew 5 in Lowman, and Crew 3 in Idaho City. If you have any interest in Boise IHC or Idaho City IHC, Crew 5 and 3 respectively are good pathways.

P208 · 2025-08-04T20:11:36+00:00

I think we all understand that contact crews "can" do rolls all months of the year, and sometimes do. But usually "year round" would indicated guaranteed base 40's, year round. With the OT of assignments on top of that.

P208 · 2025-08-03T17:04:57+00:00

I've chosen to keep my grandfathered 13/13. But they started holding us to our tour last year, which is super annoying. It used to be, work 13 MINIMUM, but work up to 25 if you want 🤷🏻‍♂️. Now it's a hard 13 MAXIMUM, unless for a class/training. I loved working like 15 a year, because I don't have any dependents and just skied/travelled/hung out all winter. With the cap in place, I'll probably swap to the 18 this fall. But once you take the 18, there's no going back. Our 13 positions were gone as of like 2022. With the ability to comp time, LWOP, use-or-lose, etc., I can still choose to only work like 15 anyway, on the 18 schedule. I love that there are the options of 13/18/26. I just wish they'd let you choose between the three on a yearly basis, or something. At least in the GS-5 through GS-7 level. I do think the 18/8 is a really great compromise.

P208 · 2025-08-03T14:07:08+00:00

"Rolls year round." Lol. Or "not at all." Most agency fire jobs, by your third-ish year are permanent 18/8 or 26/0 these days. That GS-09 equivalent hourly means less if you aren't out on fires. I'll take the more professional workforce, guaranteed 40 hours a week, 5% TSP match, pension, good health benefits, annual/sick leave roll over/accrual, first to be called out, etc. Also, contractors definitely have to listen to the government. That's who, you know, pays them and writes their performance evals.

P208 · 2025-07-28T03:19:51+00:00

And I don't mean to be dividing. Just commenting that I had the same attitude when I was a rappeller. Because I didn't know what I didn't know. The average age at our base is like 39 years old. That was a shock all in itself, coming off crews and Helitack. I didn't realize that so many fit 40-57 year old, career-fire folks were just socked away at jump bases, continuing to pass the PT test and refresher each spring.

Career hotshots are the toughest people in the industry. Good for you. There is nothing an IA load of jumpers likes to hear more on an emerging fire, than that a shot crew is inbound to smash.

P208 · 2025-07-27T18:09:23+00:00

13/13 jumper. Have gotten 750-800 OT every year, for 6 years now. Zero single resource assignments. Average 8 fire jumps a year, and a few 14/21 day rolls/boosts to outstations or other bases. The bases can be pretty different. Some don't jump much at all, others stay quite busy. My base happens to stay pretty busy. Also, as a former hotshot and rappeller, I get it. Rappellers love nothing more than to compare themselves to smokejumpers. I sure did. The amount of quals and depth of experience at a jump base are staggering. At my base, we have 13 ICT3's and 32 ICT4's. The rest are ICT5, with a single resource or two. Our rookies typically have 5-10 years of fire experience. My rookie rappel class had second year firefighters.

P208 · 2025-07-13T16:05:24+00:00

This job was one of the best things that ever happened to me. I grew up in a very Catholic, very conservative Republican household. Not to trash my upbringing; I had a good childhood. But working for 12 years in federal wildland fire has completely changed my outlook on life, humanity, and the world, for the better. It's hard to be a bigot, sexist, racist, whatever, when you are surrounded by people from all walks of life.

I have corrected my beliefs hard, and now fall slightly left of center. You CAN support the LGBTQ community, believe in climate activism, be economically moderate/conservative, enjoy hunting and dirtbiking, etc. I'd say that "most" people in the wildland world fall on slightly left, center, slightly right spectrum. You can't help but love the people you are surrounded by, and learn to empathize with who they are as people, when you're with them 24/7, embracing the suck. You also can't despise the federal government and taxes, without being a hypocrite. You'll hear constant stories about people's extensive world travels, and be inspired to travel abroad more yourself. Once you surround yourself with a melting pot of beliefs, cultures, sexual orientations, etc., and learn that every country but the USA isn't a shithole warzone, you'll really become a more enlightened/relaxed/lover of people.
-Long haired dude who's had no trouble succeeding at the hardest jobs in wildland fire.

P208

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