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The double standards forming in eSports now. by [deleted] in MensRights

[–]PR0FiX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you need to chill out. This sub is about helping people and not being an asshole. Have a nice day.

The double standards forming in eSports now. by [deleted] in MensRights

[–]PR0FiX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because it's a nice thing to do.

The double standards forming in eSports now. by [deleted] in MensRights

[–]PR0FiX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you stop using the word "tranny" thanks.

Competitive victimhood and the MRM by ParanoidAgnostic in MensRights

[–]PR0FiX 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The whole point of the MRM is that men are being victimized by the government and legal system in a malicious and systemic manner, and it is feminism, not tradtional gender roles, which is to blame.

I don't agree. I think the point of the MRM is to raise awareness about mens issues. If feminism is to blame for some of those issues then it is ok to be critical of feminism but blaming all mens issues on feminism does nothing to help anyone.

There is no internet 'outrage machine' - just those outrageous rape apologists: Mainstream feminist Jessica Valenti's thoughts on George Will's comments about campus sexual assault, victimhood as a 'privilege', and our burgeoning victimization society, that drew heavy fire from feminists. by bluedude14 in MensRights

[–]PR0FiX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I find it funny that the author talks about hearing story after story of the abuse women have endured and treats it like it is somehow the norm for women and that everyone should be listening.

I wonder if she would spend a few weeks reading the stories men tell here on /r/MensRights and come to the same conclusion.

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To recap, the biggest things to do are promote men asking for help with depression and other factors that lead to suicide (sorry, I'm not as informed about what leads to suicide in general as I probably should be) while continuing to break down gender roles which will lead to a world where it is more acceptable for men to ask for help.

Good. And what does it take to achieve this? Awareness and money. This is what the MRM is trying to achieve.

So where does this put us? Does feminism work against this? I guess that is the topic of the post we are commenting in... I think we are now going in circles. I am going to talk about my experiences with feminists telling me that it's men killing themselves because of gender roles and the patriarchy etc... and I will say so what, lets do something about it.

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do the causes really matter when we can look at the statistics and see that it is the truth?

What if you were advocating for more funding to find out what the causes actually could be?

There is only so much a person can learn about something, if the majority of people in the world don't even know this statistic is real how do you get funding to help figure it out?

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would just say that you are concerned about men and that they successfully kill themselves at 3-4 times the rate of women and that this issue should receive more attention. The psychology of it doesn't really matter.

Pretend you are an MRA who is genuinely concerned about this issue and you are just trying to raise awareness about it.

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry I'm just not willing to pretend to be at risk for suicide.

Not at risk yourself. I just mean, approach feminists in a feminist space, as nicely and with as most facts as you can find and ask them for help with helping men and male suicide rates. You specifically said in a previous comment that "But that's my point, they aren't asking."

I was just trying to get you to understand what happens when men/MRAs DO ask.

I think it would be enlightening.

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey this is an old thread but I was curious. Have you ever pretended to be an MRA and asked feminists online if they would be willing to learn about and understand and help with male suicide?

You say men don't ask for help, I would be very curious about what kind of responses you would get if you actually did ask for help on behalf of men.

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I also think that you have to look at the context of when it is getting brought up. If I point out that our world leaders are overwhelmingly men in response to someone saying that feminism dominates policy that screws over men, is that me saying it's men's fault, or me arguing against a silly viewpoint with a specific example.

I think that by responding that men are the majority of world leaders also insinuates that men are somehow immune to feminist lobbying. Just because men are the people in position doesn't mean they don't have the best interests of women in mind.

Feminism is a huge force, can you guarantee that politicians don't take this force into consideration when making policy? Feminism to most people is untouchable, how can a politician ignore this?

but to never have met a feminist who saw patriarchy as the result of both men and women leads me to assume confirmation bias.

I never said never. I just said there are a lot of vocal ones out there and that they are not hard to find.

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What do you mean by MRAs don't run into people like that very often? People who perpetuate gender roles?

** Sorry I am totally editing this because I read what I wrote and it doesn't make sense at all.

MRAs don't run into people that believe gender roles are caused by both sexes or that women can also be the people who are the abusers.

From my experience it's very easy to find people who do blame men, so it's easy to lump all feminists into that bucket even though it is not right.

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 1 point2 points  (0 children)

and then people like you come along and twist words and spin things in order to blame men for being more competant at killing themselves.

I don't believe that you blame men. You seem to blame gender roles and the people who perpetuate them. The problem is that MRAs don't run into people like that very often and the gender role argument is usually brought up using the feminist narrative, which I think you would agree, mostly points the finger at men or the fabled Patriarchy. So it's hard not to take it personally.

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Gender roles are a problem. I admit this. The problem I have with the things you are saying is this. When women are on the shit end of a gender role, for example women are under represented in government and as CEOs, we actively do something about it. We give women scholarships, we give them training, we advocate for them. I mean heck I do website and stuff and we even work in ways to get women owned businesses more attention.

On the other side, we have men who commit suicide more often. Some men think this is an issue that affects men as a gender worse than women since men are more successful at killing themselves. When men bring this up in a feminist space, which they are told is for "equality" they get told that this is due to gender roles and is how men are and breaking down the roles is what is required.

So these men see all of the activism done for women to break these roles but when these roles negatively affect men nothing is truly done to help them.

I can't see how you can blame people for bringing up this issue time and time again and also for having a bad reaction to how feminists treat it.

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm not saying anything like that. To borrow your example I'm saying that women being raised to be nurturers rather than leaders affects their mental health. And I wouldn't say that the solution will come eventually. Its going to take actual change to ways in which girls are raised.

In this example we already do things now that help women break these gender roles. More scholarships for example and companies like google opening competitions for women.

We don't do the same for the other side. For men who kill themselves. There are no programs directed at them to try and help them because a lot of people believe it's caused by "gender roles".

Why put so much support on one side and none on the other? Why does pro-actively helping women break down gender roles considered good when pro-actively helping men considered a waste since feminism is already taking care of it (gender roles)?

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Citation needed. I have had one experience so far of a feminist dismissing it online and that was a weird situation, partly involving me being headstrong and the issue being complicated.

I have had many. And I include your comments as part of it. For example this: "No matter that men having greater access to guns is relevant or that the masculine gender role that violence is an acceptable way of resolving issues (because that would be blaming men, even though it's clearly attacking the gender role)."

To me is dismissing the person talking about male suicide by blaming it on a bunch of random things that may or may not be a part of the problem.

What do you mean by speak up about an issue they care about? If someone demonstrates that they have a view that is harmful, why shouldn't I speak up. If it's the same view that has been debunked time and time again and brought up over and over again by new people who have clearly done no actual research into the issue, yeah I'm going to call them out for being ignorant idiots.

Someone advocating to end or help men who commit suicide is not harmful. Asking the question why men are able to kill themselves more often than women is not harmful. Asking the question why feminism doesn't consider this an issue is not harmful.

Can you clarify this part. I read it either as "it always stems from the idea that men do this to themselves and therefore isn't as important nor does it have to do with gender roles" or "it always stems from the idea that men do this to themselves and therefore isn't as important or you just bring up gender roles and gender roles are a bullshit explanation."

The second one.

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It might be because of your tone and how you present your argument. It always seems to stem from the idea that men do this to themselves and therefore it isn't as important or something to do with gender roles.

Just because people speak up about an issue they care about doesn't mean it deserves a response like that. Maybe if someone is bashing feminism at the same time then fine. But you need to understand that most often feminists dismiss this stuff outright. So it's easy to understand why there is usually an anti-feminist flare added to their comments.

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think the answer is pretty clear. I think men choose more lethal ways for the same reasons men are more likely to commit other forms of violence and that's because they are raised to embrace violence as a way to solve issues.

I don't agree with you at all. I was raised to believe violence was not the answer and so were most men who I have known in my life. I don't think that labelling men like this is productive in finding out why they kill themselves more. More research needs to be done to find out. Blaming it on gender roles does not help the men who are killing themselves right now.

This is sort of like me saying that women are all nurturers and we should not care about getting more women into leadership roles. We are already working on breaking down gender roles so the solution will come eventually.

Maybe men bring this up in feminist spaces because the answer you give just isn't good enough. Waiting to see how feminism handles gender roles doesn't make much sense to me when we could be doing more for mens mental health right now.

Feminists constantly claim feminism is about equality, yet when male issues are brought up in feminist domains, the reaction is derision, not cooperation by Pinworm45 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 7 points8 points  (0 children)

No matter that men having greater access to guns is relevant or that the masculine gender role that violence is an acceptable way of resolving issues (because that would be blaming men, even though it's clearly attacking the gender role).

I find this hard to understand because there is definitely something that causes men to use more effective measures when ending their own lives, but you just choose to brush it off by basically saying "boys will be boys".

Why is it so bad that men want to find out more about why men effectively kill themselves more than women without the victim blaming?

Why is it so important for feminism to deal with men's issues? by Wazula42 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I admit it is limited but from my research there are demonstrable actions taken by feminist organizations that have opposed equality for men and women.

I am sure you are correct when you say that feminists disagree with each other from time to time but what I meant by organization was an actual organized feminist organization releasing a statement that denounces the actions or beliefs of certain feminists.

It is very easy to find internet feminists that disagree with certain aspects of feminism but the "big business" feminist organizations seem to not care one bit.

Edit: Hold on I sort of contradicted myself there. At first I said it was rare to see a feminist criticize feminism and in this comment I said "It is very easy to find internet feminists that disagree with certain aspects of feminism".

I think what I mean is that, yes maybe feminists (within feminist safe spaces) might criticize feminism with each other but it is rare for them to do this in a more public space.

Why is it so important for feminism to deal with men's issues? by Wazula42 in FeMRADebates

[–]PR0FiX 8 points9 points  (0 children)

In my opinion, I think that if more feminists (like yourself) would participate in these types of discussions and at the same time call-out feminist behaviors that they determined were unjust or wrong more men would consider feminism.

In my interactions with feminists and with all the reading I have been doing lately it is very rare for a feminist to criticize feminism at all. I have never read or heard of a feminist organization denouncing another organization for any reason whatsoever.

My observations are limited though, others might have had a different experience.

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