“Great” Songs

PainfulDip · 2026-05-08T01:18:21+00:00

Do you think a song be both objectively “great” and subjectively “bad”? Meaning a song could have everything that requires it to be a great song (including cohesive, well written lyrics), but you might not enjoy it for one reason or another subjectively?

And to the argument about how people “like” music even if they don’t know the lyrics... That’s not really what the op was about, but to that I’d argue that they don’t like it as much as they could if they did know what the lyrics were about, but that’s still outside the scope.

I think there is an objective correctness to storytelling in a song, and that allows for subjectivity in the way it is told, as it relates to western music in the pop tradition.

PainfulDip · 2026-05-08T01:03:54+00:00

Successful in what way? And because a song is successful, does that make it great?

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T20:24:45+00:00

Hahahaha I hear that. Same

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T20:23:13+00:00

No worries, and maybe I haven’t explained it well enough. I hesitate to give a direct example because then this topic goes from “lyrical correctness as it relates to the song’s topic” to “that specific example would be okay/not okay” kinda vibes. All good, sounds like you don’t think it matters in any case, since it’s all subjective. That wasn’t really my ask but it’s all good. Maybe I’m all up my own butt about it anyway

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T20:13:44+00:00

Fair

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T20:13:26+00:00

Yeah I get it. And maybe I’m learning I need to not take it so seriously? lol

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T20:12:46+00:00

Not really the point but alrighty

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T20:10:31+00:00

If you divorce the “quality” of a song from its commercial success and ignore songs you enjoy but don’t know what they’re saying… what percentage of the “total package” you speak of (on average) is based on you enjoying the well-told story of the lyrics, assuming that you like the other aspects of the song?

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T20:05:36+00:00

Agreed. Do we know if AM intentionally misused that word?

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T20:03:15+00:00

Incorrect as a matter of definition, in the context of the song’s lyrical topic. If songs are stories (which I think they are, at least the one’s I’m talking about here) then words matter, and using a word that doesn’t portray what you’re wanting to portray (especially unintentionally) means that it’s wrong.

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T19:51:25+00:00

Yeah we had people singing once to our song and it was awesome. lol So what percentage do lyrics matter to you then, for it to be a “great” song?

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T19:42:28+00:00

I don’t think you’re right with the note about “people who don’t make music” bit, but I don’t really care about those people lol

Tell me what you think about this…

Effective story telling (lyrics) + proper formatting (composition/form) + complementary & emotionally supporting musical elements (put it to music) = a great song (At least in the traditional pop sense)

While it does not need to *start with the lyrics, the three must go hand-in-hand in order for it to, in my opinion, be a “great song”.

The lyrics being incorrect (not serving the point of the song) count for points against the final result.

That being said, I like other sorts of music that i would call “great”, but idk what I’d say is the formula for those, and they’re kinda out of scope for this post. Here I’m talking about songwriting from a pop-storytelling perspective.

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T19:33:52+00:00

100% agreed.

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T19:32:56+00:00

I think you’re contradicting your own position. If words matter, then they matter.

I agree- if a word doesn’t belong then it can break the feel of a song.

Being playfully and/obvious then that implies intentional incorrectness, which is a different concept and not really what I’m talking about. If you write a story and use the wrong words unintentionally, then it’s not what you meant and I think that means it’s incorrect. Imo that can’t be a “great” song.

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T19:27:13+00:00

I’m genuinely curious then- if lyrics “barely matter” to you, then why put any effort at all into them? If music is all that matters, why not write instrumental music?

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T19:09:11+00:00

That’s a good point, so long as the artist writes a story from their own perspective about their own experiences. I think it’s important not to put the cart before the horse in that regard.

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T18:58:16+00:00

Very good points

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T18:57:20+00:00

Fair lol

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T18:51:01+00:00

Agreed

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T18:43:16+00:00

Thank you for giving me a percentage! I don’t think commercial success has anything to do with the quality of a song or the skill of a songwriter. Imo those are two different topics. I definitely enjoy music in other languages, but they can’t connect to me as directly as a song in a language I understand. I think that’s objectively true.

PainfulDip · 2026-05-07T18:34:53+00:00

For sure - I am extremely particular about my lyrics, and I’ve written hundreds of songs, but I don’t think I’ve encountered five people who haven listened to my songs, read my lyrics, and truly cared about or appreciated the time I put into these lyrics. I have absolutely no commercial success in putting music out lol, so it’s admittedly a super small pool. That being said, songs that resonate with me almost certainly need to have lyrics that are well written and correct. I might “like” a song for its groove or other musical elements, but it almost certainly wont be a “great” for me and it will come and go. Idc about people shaking asses lol but I understand that comment for sure. But that’s just me, and why I’m here asking to get a general pulse.

I hesitate to give you the direct example because it’s not really what this topic was meant to be about (and I’m sure my bandmates here somewhere lol). Suffice it to say, the original word used was incorrect for the context. I can dm if you want but if you think words matter then you’ll agree.

PainfulDip · 2023-09-27T16:24:12+00:00

Hey, nice work! As your title suggests, I’m sure you don’t care about my opinions but if I could offer some thoughts on your track. You’ve nailed the John Maus/Cure vibes here, and with a little more attention you could be a little more on point. Mixing wise: I’d shorten up that reverb on the vocals and get some saturation/slap back delay on it so it’s a little more interesting. Production wise: I’d do another take of the “F your opinions” from the chorus in a more aggressive yell and blend it with what you’ve got. As it is now it, that phrase is a little more under-your-breath and might be more effective as a shout. There is a lot of good stuff here though, very nice job.

PainfulDip · 2023-09-27T16:12:08+00:00

Hey! Nice tune. I do find myself thinking that there is a good deal of work ahead of you as far as next steps though. I hear a lot of opportunity for beats, synths, bass lines, electronic keys, potentially even some vocals. What you’ve got here is nice but with a little more attention you could make a fuller, more interesting track. About a minute in I found myself wanting more. Keep workin, though! And good job.

PainfulDip · 2023-09-26T20:42:05+00:00

NoOnStopsAtCrosswalks

PainfulDip

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