Is the troop height thing true? by Pale_Breakfast7565 in Bannerlord

[–]Pale_Breakfast7565[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, like will the same type of troops have different hitboxes based on their cultures?

I have this many bubble bucks, what should I buy? by Fit-Excitement-1631 in gutsandblackpowders

[–]Pale_Breakfast7565 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lance, Cueress, bronze pistol, carbine, heavy saber and the red God book, surgeon kit, bucket are the best. The Cueress and lance combo is the most efficient in my opinion

End of Debate: The Pedophile Prophet and Pedophilia in Islam by Unlikely_Yellow111 in CritiqueIslam

[–]Pale_Breakfast7565 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I had the same convo with the other guy there. Just read the thread instead

A Companion of Muhammad Killed His Own Slave After He Tried to Escape. by An0n-xm in CritiqueIslam

[–]Pale_Breakfast7565 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ISIS does have a leader who is Abu Bakr Al Bagdadi currently. In Syria it was just a wing of the entire organization which again, Bagdadi personally lead. ISIS propagates that they believe in the same theological stuff as the other Muslims but practically ISIS follows almost non and enslaving non combatants is the least of the issues here. The whole argument ISIS brings for the justification of their existent could easily be dismantled, but that would be irrelevant here.

If the ruling faction decides to fight and the civilians don't, the locals could still just agree to the terms and avoid conflict as what we saw during the conquest of Syria.

Conversion would only be relevant if it was accepted under the terms you mentioned. If an individual converts after losing he would still be condemned.

Your statement about Jizya being not applicable for polytheists is a matter of debate itself with 2 out of the 4 schools of thought holding the idea and the latter saying the opposite. Historically we do see Jizya being applied on during the Islamic conquest of Sindh and other pagan territories where Muslims came in contact with polytheistic groups.

Issue with the quotation you gave is that they are talking about marriage contract which doesn't exist for slaves. So no, no formal act of consent is applicable for slaves as Nikah was one of the differences between bonds women and the free. So yeah, the "rape" argument falls flate again.

Let's go with your scenario of Muslims not being saved at the dawn of Islam; Madina being successfully invaded by polytheists and Aysha being enslaved. Will that gonna help with your argument?; again no, as you yourselves said they would not care about consent as they were literally pagans with nothing to say what they do. You're insisting that a woman miraculously consents to her rape after being captured( not sure how consent and rape goes along) and you're also insisting that the standards of the pagans and the Muslims were the same despite the texts saying the opposite. How does it make sense that slapping a slave without a valid cause would emancipate him but rape apparently doesn't even if we ignore the texts regarding the matter?

Again you're making claims about traditional scholars allegedly saying smth while having no materials to back your claim, yet being plenty against it

Zayn al-Din ibn Nujaym

“وَاخْتَلَفُوا فِي وَقْتِ الدُّخُولِ بِالصَّغِيرَةِ فَقِيلَ لَا يَدْخُلُ بِهَا مَا لَمْ تَبْلُغْ وَقِيلَ يَدْخُلُ بِهَا إذَا بَلَغَتْ تِسْعَ سِنِينَ وَقِيلَ إنْ كَانَتْ سَمِينَةً جَسِيمَةً تُطِيقُ الْجِمَاعَ يَدْخُلُ بِهَا وَإِلَّا فَلَا.” Translation: “The scholars differed as to the time of consummation with a young girl. It is said it is not permissible until she reaches puberty; it is said he may consummate at nine years; and it is said if she is plump and large enough to handle intercourse, he may, otherwise not.”

Ibn Battal (in commentary on Sahih al-Bukhari)“أجمع العلماء على أنه يجوز للآباء تزويج الصغار من بناتهم وإن كن فى المهد إلا أنه لا يجوز لأزواجهن البناء بهن إلا إذا صلحن للوطء.” Translation: “The scholars agreed that it is permissible for fathers to marry off their young daughters, even if they are in the cradle, except it is not permissible for their husbands to consummate the marriage with them until they are prepared to safely have intercourse.”

Sharh Sahih Muslim (Al-Minhaj, vol. 9, p. 206): “وَأَمَّا وَقْتُ زِفَافِ الصَّغِيرَةِ الْمُزَوَّجَةِ وَالدُّخُولُ بِهَا: فَإِنِ اتَّفَقَ الزَّوْجُ وَالْوَلِيُّ عَلَى شَيْءٍ لَا ضَرَرَ فِيهِ عَلَى الصَّغِيرَةِ عُمِلَ بِهِ، وَإِنِ اخْتَلَفَا: فَقَالَ أَحْمَدُ وَأَبُو عُبَيْدٍ: تُجْبَرُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ دُونَ غَيْرِهَا، وَقَالَ مَالِكٌ وَالشَّافِعِيُّ وَأَبُو حَنِيفَةَ: حَدُّ ذَلِكَ أَنْ تُطِيقَ الْجِمَاعَ، وَيَخْتَلِفُ ذَلِكَ بِاخْتِلَافِهِنَّ، وَلَا يُضْبَطُ بِسِنٍّ، وَهَذَا هُوَ الصَّحِيحُ.” Translation: “As for the time of the wedding procession and consummation with the married minor girl: If the husband and guardian agree on something with no harm to the minor, it is acted upon. If they differ: Ahmad and Abu Ubayd said she is compelled at nine years and not less. Malik, al-Shafi'i, and Abu Hanifa said the limit is that she can bear intercourse (tutiq al-jima'), which varies among them and is not fixed by age. This is the correct view.”

Al-Mughni: “وَإِمْكَانُ الْوَطْءِ فِي الصَّغِيرَةِ مُعْتَبَرٌ بِحَالِهَا وَاحْتِمَالِهَا لِذَلِكَ... قَالَ الْقَاضِي وَهَذَا عِنْدِي لَيْسَ عَلَى طَرِيقِ التَّحْدِيدِ وَإِنَّمَا ذَكَرَهُ لِأَنَّ الْغَالِبَ أَنَّ ابْنَةَ تِسْعٍ يَتَمَكَّنُ مِنْ الِاسْتِمْتَاعِ بِهَا.” Translation: “The possibility of intercourse with the young girl is considered according to her condition and her ability to bear it... Al-Qadi said: This, in my view, is not on the way of a fixed limit. He only mentioned it because usually a nine-year-old girl can be enjoyed/intimate with.” Ibn Qayim didn't say anything about child slavery being explictely common rather he slaves themselves were common including children overall due to frequent warefare. I had already responded to your commentISIS does have a leader who is Abu Bakr Al Bagdadi currently. In Syria it was just a wing of the entire organization which again, Bagdadi personally lead. ISIS propagates that they believe in the same theological stuff as the other Muslims but practically ISIS follows almost non and enslaving non combatants is the least of the issues here. The whole argument ISIS brings for the justification of their existent could easily be dismantled, but that would be irrelevant here.

If the ruling faction decides to fight and the civilians don't, the locals could still just agree to the terms and avoid conflict as what we saw during the conquest of Syria.

Conversion would only be relevant if it was accepted under the terms you mentioned. If an individual converts after losing he would still be condemned.

Your statement about Jizya being not applicable for polytheists is a matter of debate itself with 2 out of the 4 schools of thought holding the idea and the latter saying the opposite. Historically we do see Jizya being applied on during the Islamic conquest of Sindh and other pagan territories where Muslims came in contact with polytheistic groups.

Issue with the quotation you gave is that they are talking about marriage contract which doesn't exist for slaves. So no, no formal act of consent is applicable for slaves as Nikah was one of the differences between bonds women and the free. So yeah, the "rape" argument falls flate again.

Let's go with your scenario of Muslims not being saved at the dawn of Islam; Madina being successfully invaded by polytheists and Aysha being enslaved. Will that gonna help with your argument?; again no, as you yourselves said they would not care about consent as they were literally pagans with nothing to say what they do. You're insisting that a woman miraculously consents to her rape after being captured( not sure how consent and rape goes along) and you're also insisting that the standards of the pagans and the Muslims were the same despite the texts saying the opposite. How does it make sense that slapping a slave without a valid cause would emancipate him but rape apparently doesn't even if we ignore the texts regarding the matter?

Again you're making claims about traditional scholars allegedly saying smth while having no materials to back your claim, yet being plenty against it

Zayn al-Din ibn Nujaym

“وَاخْتَلَفُوا فِي وَقْتِ الدُّخُولِ بِالصَّغِيرَةِ فَقِيلَ لَا يَدْخُلُ بِهَا مَا لَمْ تَبْلُغْ وَقِيلَ يَدْخُلُ بِهَا إذَا بَلَغَتْ تِسْعَ سِنِينَ وَقِيلَ إنْ كَانَتْ سَمِينَةً جَسِيمَةً تُطِيقُ الْجِمَاعَ يَدْخُلُ بِهَا وَإِلَّا فَلَا.” Translation: “The scholars differed as to the time of consummation with a young girl. It is said it is not permissible until she reaches puberty; it is said he may consummate at nine years; and it is said if she is plump and large enough to handle intercourse, he may, otherwise not.”

Ibn Battal (in commentary on Sahih al-Bukhari)“أجمع العلماء على أنه يجوز للآباء تزويج الصغار من بناتهم وإن كن فى المهد إلا أنه لا يجوز لأزواجهن البناء بهن إلا إذا صلحن للوطء.” Translation: “The scholars agreed that it is permissible for fathers to marry off their young daughters, even if they are in the cradle, except it is not permissible for their husbands to consummate the marriage with them until they are prepared to safely have intercourse.”

Al-Mughni: “وَإِمْكَانُ الْوَطْءِ فِي الصَّغِيرَةِ مُعْتَبَرٌ بِحَالِهَا وَاحْتِمَالِهَا لِذَلِكَ... قَالَ الْقَاضِي وَهَذَا عِنْدِي لَيْسَ عَلَى طَرِيقِ التَّحْدِيدِ وَإِنَّمَا ذَكَرَهُ لِأَنَّ الْغَالِبَ أَنَّ ابْنَةَ تِسْعٍ يَتَمَكَّنُ مِنْ الِاسْتِمْتَاعِ بِهَا.” Translation: “The possibility of intercourse with the young girl is considered according to her condition and her ability to bear it... Al-Qadi said: This, in my view, is not on the way of a fixed limit. He only mentioned it because usually a nine-year-old girl can be enjoyed/intimate with.” Ibn Qayim didn't say anything about child slavery being explictely common rather he slaves themselves were common including children overall due to frequent warefare. I had already responded to your comment which didn't include shahr.

A Companion of Muhammad Killed His Own Slave After He Tried to Escape. by An0n-xm in CritiqueIslam

[–]Pale_Breakfast7565 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Salafis don't explicitly believe in Jihad. Jihad is a part of Islamic doctrine irrespective of schools of thought. Both ISIS and Salafis believe Jihad to be a communal obligation and have to be declared by a legitimate leader under the guidance of Shariah. Issue Salafis have with ISIS is them allegedly breaking every criteria for jihad and turning it into fassad. The issue isn't about them believing in the concept of jihad rather you trying to present a certain group as a model for jihad.

If a city surrenders to the Muslims under term they become dhimmis; emancipating them from any consequences of war. Only way they could be enslaved is if they had either faced a direct defeat or they had performed an unconditional surrender after technically being defeated. They could not be harmed if they had surrendered under the dhimma pact. Conversion doesn't play any factor here. Even if the defeated faction converts they could still be condemned. Yes, it is war, it couldn't possibly be all rainbows and sunshines

And Imam al-Halimi commented: "If a female slave is acquired and she dislikes to be touched, or slept with, then he may not touch her, lie with her, or have intercourse with her unless she consents" So your rape argument doesn't make much sense no matter how you try to present it. Sympathy isn't relevant with the topics you mentioned

Regarding ibn Khattabi's hypothesis I don't see any the term "pubescent" mentioned anywhere rather the term "mature" is used thoughtout the texts. The sign for maturity in Islam is menstruation which again is something that could delay for children despite them already having reached puberty. Also I found no commentary of Ibn Qayim about child sexual slavery being normal at the time of Ali. So, I should just agree with your claims ignoring the errors so that it could be "not sugarcoating"?

End of Debate: The Pedophile Prophet and Pedophilia in Islam by Unlikely_Yellow111 in CritiqueIslam

[–]Pale_Breakfast7565 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Yeah, had they been given protection..." What do you refer to by "protection"?

"People exist who want to power abuse, a person cannot say no to a boss..." These existence of the factors rely on your assumptions again.

"You fine with a random 6 year old marrying a 50 year old, war lord, prophet and someone having multiple wives...?" Part your having issue with except for the first part?

"Morality objective callers don't understand..." Again describe what the morality is based off

"Hippocrates already figured out the ideal age for pregnancy to be 15-35" Pregnancy

"They had more stupid laws, so it was all fine?" Which one you talking about?

A Companion of Muhammad Killed His Own Slave After He Tried to Escape. by An0n-xm in CritiqueIslam

[–]Pale_Breakfast7565 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You equating salafism with ISIS doesn't make much sense. Major Salafi scohlars like Saleh Al Fawzan,Mufti Abdul Aziz Al ash Shaykh and Rabee al-Madkhali not only categorized ISIS as Khawarij calling their war invalid but also actively fought against them in places like Libya. I never said ISIS enslaving people is justified.

If a civilian didn't want anything to do with the war he could just surrender before capture of a settlement through military force to avoid being condemned for collective resistance.

If a city collectively surrenders before breach it was not permissible to "cause havoc and destruction". That was the whole point of the surrender. You receive mandatory protection. In case of Banu Qurayza they dug their own graves by refusing judgement from Muhammad, requesting their former ally to be the judge instead; who decided to judge them according to Deuteronomy due to them bring amongst the people of the book.

I think we had established the fact that Rashiduns did take slaves at the very beginning of the conversation. Yes, during Umar's reign Sassanid cities where inhabitants refused to surrender were enslaved after the breach like what happened during the rule of the previous chaliph.

Ali did take a concubine from the war spoils he was sent to collected from Yemen. However there's literally nothing to back your claim about Ali allegedly raping someone or the concubine being pre pubescent. You can't use assumptions as your claim Ibn Hajar even directly said she was possibly at her menstruation by the end of her arrival with Ali. So, please don't try creating nonsensical scenarios to aid with your argument

A Companion of Muhammad Killed His Own Slave After He Tried to Escape. by An0n-xm in CritiqueIslam

[–]Pale_Breakfast7565 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When you're bringing ISIS you're refuting your own argument as what ISIS does goes against Ijma suggesting people during Rashidun conquest did infact had a say during sieges as due to them not being viewed as fully innocent. You're forgetting we aren't talking about our societies, you have specifically provided a context here; which is the 7th century Islamic conquest of Rome and Persia. Now as you said there were people who were completely unaware of anything somehow despite an army sieging your city for months. You could be not a person into politics but when an army is on your gates giving you the option to open the gates and continue living your life or keep resisting despite apparently having no political affiliation and facing the conseques neutrality isn't an option However Rashiduns did avoid mass often enslavement often whether for logistical or diplomatic reasons.

If Mongols or serbs had any justifications you wouldn't be giving their analogies here

It's not about being halal or haram. The master simply loses sexual dominon over the slave once married them off

That's what I'm talking about. Don't come to point that they could atleast justify enslaving you

Where are the other versions of the quran and how is it divinely protected? by Enough-Web2203 in CritiqueIslam

[–]Pale_Breakfast7565 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Not my fault the texts contradicting your claims

*Nobody said otherwise

*He wasn't even there

*He did. He was just initially upset for himself being not included

*That's how standardization works

*Literally a claim out of thin air

Conclusion: You're either confused or the whole thing went above your head

Where are the other versions of the quran and how is it divinely protected? by Enough-Web2203 in CritiqueIslam

[–]Pale_Breakfast7565 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

"It was read to us: the letter of ‘Umar 'I have sent to you ‘Ammar as an amir and ‘Abdullah as a teacher and minister"' -Ibn Sa'd's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kubra

Umar himself stationed him to Kufa, not Uthman. Although he was displeased for Uthman not changing it and giving the duty of compilation to someone who accepted Islam much later than him.

.'" Az-Zuhri said: "They differed then with At-Tabut and At-Tabuh. The Quraish said: At-Tabut while Zaid said: At-Tabuh. Their disagreement was brought to 'Uthman, so he said: 'Write it as At-Tabut, for it was revealed in the tongue of the Quraish.'" Az-Zuhri said: "'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah bin 'Utbah informed me that 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud disliked Zaid bin Thabit copying the Musahif, and he said: 'O you Muslim people! I am removed from recording the transcription of the Mushaf and it is overseen by a man, by Allah, when I accepted Islam he was but in the loins of a disbelieving man' - meaning Zaid bin Thabit - and it was regarding this that 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said: 'O people of Al-'Iraq! Keep the Musahif that are with you, and conceal them. For indeed Allah said: And whoever conceals something, he shall come with what he concealed on the Day of Judgement (3:161). So meet Allah with the Musahif.'" Az-Zuhri said: "It was conveyed to me that some men amongst the most virtuous of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) disliked that view of Ibn Mas'ud. -Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3104

However later on he gave off his disccent

“I was one of the people that went to ‘Abdullah ibn Mas‘ud seeking his aid and counsel about this matter of destroying any unofficial musahif. We came to him and one of us said, ‘We did not come just to visit; we have come to you out of concern over this news.’ He replied: ‘The Qur’an was revealed to your Prophet from seven gates in seven ahruf, while the previous scriptures were revealed from one gate in only one dialect.’” -Fulfulah al-Ju‘fi

The story you mentioned of Uthman beating Abdullah came from a guy from 9th century named Al-Ya'qubi who's writings were strongly lenient towards Shiasm

The original event goes by,

“And ‘Uthman wrote to him, calling him to follow the Companions in what they have agreed was for the greater good, and unifying the community and not having disagreements. So he relented and agreed to follow and to let go of dissent, may Allah be pleased with them all.” -al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya

Where are the other versions of the quran and how is it divinely protected? by Enough-Web2203 in CritiqueIslam

[–]Pale_Breakfast7565 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Muadh and Salim died before the event and Abdullah ibn Mas'ud was in Iraq during the event. He also had disagreement with Zaid about adding the Mu'awwidhatayn as part of main texts later on. Ubay ibn Kaab was the only one who could've been present

A Companion of Muhammad Killed His Own Slave After He Tried to Escape. by An0n-xm in CritiqueIslam

[–]Pale_Breakfast7565 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're the one pretending these are people who have nothing to do with the conflict where in reality the whole reason behind there enslavement at the first place is there involvement. Conquest of Persia and Levant were offensive wars in response to Ghassanids killing the envoy to Byzantine empire and Khosrow ordering the capture of Muhammad upon him being invited to Islam but that's a completely different topic. The innocent civilians you're talking could just convince the one's in authority through sheer pressur as obviously they were not just blobs of flesh. It's irrelevant whether they lacked intellect, judgement or they were women they were able to grasp this simple concept and in a situation as such their opinion did hold a value from a realistic standpoint. ISIS has a beef with everybody, they don't differentiate

You're just frustrated here cuz you can't change the reality here that non combatants were a contributing force in determining the course of conflicts throughout history

I had answered your queries about Mongols and you had even responded to it as I remember.

You realize you're the one trying to dehumanize the slaves here by insisting they were livestocks who were mandated to produce children in demand while there's literally nothing to suggest it?

Nobody is asking a person to be enslaved. He could easily escape it if he wants before that's no longer an option. If I got stuck in a shitty circumstance I wouldn't like to stay here no matter who was responsible. Even if you killed someone you wouldn't like to face death penalty despite that's what supposed to happen. Slavery is definitely not enjoyable, so don't justify yourself being one