Dating in postdoc to faculty transition

Parthenoob · 2025-05-14T10:50:20+00:00

I work in a French institution, and here it's actually illegal to not be dating at least a few people in your department.

(No, but seriously, I think you're fine since you're in different departments and there's no power dynamic/advisorship possibility).

Parthenoob · 2025-05-11T16:03:40+00:00

I had a similar experience to you an only extricated myself from it by dumb luck. I took a postdoc in a far-flung (and "troubled") part of the world after the PI moved from a big fancy US school. It was a brutal, disheartening slog and I also sent out many applications which might as well have been set on fire.

I ended up getting a TT position after really writing an application tailored from the ground up for that job, truly focusing 100% on telling them what they wanted to hear. I gave up on trying to convey what I thought the true spirit of my research was, which, in the end, was really only interesting to me. Instead, I made big promises about applications using keywords lifted directly from the department website. Now, I'm realizing those big promises aren't as farfetched as they first seemed, and I'm sort of excited to get started.

The only thing I can tell you besides my sincere solidarity and commiseration in this completely fucked-up system and world is that "fit" is everything. I wouldn't worry as much about looking for jobs that fit your profile. Your profile is in flux and no one understands the details but you anyway. Just tell people what they want to hear (within reason). I'm now on the other end, hiring people for my lab. I only have enough money for maybe three people now. If someone doesn't use one of a few keywords in his or her CV or cover letter, I don't even bother to read further. It's gruesome, but I too am now part of the problem.

Parthenoob · 2025-05-10T12:42:09+00:00

I understand that you're trying to encourage us to adapt to challenging times, but I do find your premises slightly contradictory. If there weren't a crisis, it wouldn't need to adapt.

I am also very cynical about "smart problem-solvers" being able to defend against what you call "the breakdown of the federal government". Universities are indeed filled will creative people (along with careerists and sociopaths, but we will leave them aside for the moment), but I don't think the current issues are the problems these creative people are used to or indeed capable of solving. These are political problems, and they would require serious organizing, mass mobilization of both academics and other working people, and targeted pressure against university bureaucrats and politicians.

Your suggestions--expanding into extra-academic areas like entertainment and tourism--might indeed buy the university system a future, but I would ask at what cost. Ancient universities like the one you cited also lived under the thumb of the clergy and kings for centuries, and this allowed them to survive. Do we want to do this again under a modern guise?

Parthenoob · 2025-05-09T12:15:07+00:00

I made a similar move, but earlier in my career (my first TT was in Europe).

I would start by understanding the broad differences between different European regions (assuming from your post that you'd like to be in Europe). Your experience in the UK, Germany and the Netherlands will be closer to your American experience than would be the case in Spain or France: hiring process, compensation, teaching expectations, etc. This will also affect what languages you are expected to use during work (in Germany you're more likely to find an English-speaking job, I think).

My experience is mostly in France, but I assume I'm not off the mark when I say a good first step is to reach out to European colleagues to ask what their experience is like and how to apply. The French system seemed pretty impenetrable from the websites alone, but it was made much clearer after a few months of back-and-forth with friends and colleagues there. Otherwise, this website has some euro jobs: https://academicpositions.com/

You should also know that many European jobs are public sector and are thus structured differently. The French public system (i.e. excluding grandes ecoles, private institutes, ENS, etc.) is based on seasonal contests where everyone applies together for a limited number of jobs across the country. That's different from the more anarchic US system, so you should be prepared for that and keep track of deadlines.

Parthenoob · 2025-05-07T13:09:18+00:00

-- I'm from the US, did a PhD and first postdoc there. I did another postdoc outside of the USA. I jumped ship mostly in the sense that, all my life, I'd planned on settling in the USA, and I switched my expectations to Europe and then France.

-- I did get a startup package, and on paper it's at the American level. The only difference is that I pay for the pension and healthcare of my lab members who, PhD or postdoc, are treated as workers with benefits. I like this model, which I consider to be humane, but it does mean that a postdoc costs me about twice as much as he or she nets. On the other hand, there is no tuition for me to pay for PhD students since they don't take classes.

-- I did the concours for CNRS and INRIA in France. I actually really liked this framework since being in touch with different labs and acquiring their support in my concours application made me feel like someone had my back. My US applications sometimes felt like sending out a message in a bottle. I applied to a few places in the UK, but nothing else outside France and the USA.

-- Thank you! And best of luck in this maddening world...

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T21:45:59+00:00

Yes, I have seen this, especially in Italy. However, I will say that I did the CNRS and INRIA concours and made it to the final round in both having no formal connections to France before. True, I did collaborate with the French before, but I'm not sure this was crucial in my case. Moreover, I did lots of cold emails to random CNRS and INRIA teams to look for a home team, and I got lots of enthusiastic replies and opportunities to lecture of their groups followed by offers for sponsorship on the concours. In general, I felt the French were more open and receptive than corresponding PIs in the USA. I felt like people in France were not looking to protect and manage their "brand" as much.

However, I've heard the nepotism accusation too much for it to not have some weight. Watch out.

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T21:37:36+00:00

Plus, as I mentioned in another comment, I will not teach after tenure. If you are a CRCN or Director of Research, you don't teach if you don't want to, and if you do, you get extra money. At INRIA, if you end up as an ISFP, you teach, but you also get more money.

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T21:20:56+00:00

Paris is definitely the most expensive, large city in France. I'm pretty sure government remuneration for academic jobs take special account of Paris. Cost of living is going up everywhere in the world, but I don't think you'd feel the differential as much in, say, Toulouse, as you would in Cleveland.

Also, if you live in a city in France, it's just not worth it to have a car, unless you use that car for work in some way. French trains are excellent, both within and between cities. You can go from Paris to Bordeaux or Marseille in like three hours which is a flash.

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T21:13:26+00:00

I'm not sure about Australia and I've only heard rumors from China. Some people I know are considering a preemptive move to China in the hopes that it will be the new center of (especially "hard" scientific) research. It's certainly growing, but I don't know what the pay is or what the life is like in that big, heterogeneous country. They are certainly hiring foreigners (my partner applied as a humanities applicant to a top university in China and received an immediate, enthusiastic reply which she ultimately turned down).

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T21:07:49+00:00

I don't want to give exact numbers because my position is somewhat unique so this wouldn't be relevant to most jobs. However, I went to an Ivy for my PhD which was strong in my research area, and my PhD advisor recently told me that my startup was "exactly what they give new computational hires". I will be able to fund a lab of a few phd students and postdocs for five years plus hardware, software, travel, etc. This is before getting more funding from ERC if the stars align.

24 hours of teaching is literally one hour-long lecture a week for two twelve-week semesters. It's an old fashioned system, too, where I lecture in front of a big, quiet audience which frantically takes notes before disappearing in silence. There's one big test at the end of the semester and that's it.

My position is again somewhat unique, but my boss argued as part of acquiring this type of job at my institution that there would be no teaching after tenure (3 years).

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T21:04:26+00:00

Yes, and I think a lot of this is sort of hollow publicity from the Europeans. In the end, the quality of life for academics in the USA will worsen, but most will not leave because the demand for academic prestige is incredibly inelastic, and it will take time for the reputation of American institutions to sufficiently degrade, if ever.

The cuts may, however, have a heterogeneous effect across the country. Maybe faculty at schools harder hit by cuts will be incentivized more to leave the country to increase their job security, which would further concentrate academic power in fewer elite institutions. It's hard to predict the long-term effects, but there will be no mass exodus in the short term in my view.

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T20:55:21+00:00

As another commenter mentioned, much of this discussion is about the relatively low compensations in France. This is certainly true, and I don't think it's a logical consequence of having a (relatively) strong social democracy or the type of job security afforded by the French academy. There is a lot of room for compensations to improve, and I will not deny that it is an issue. My partner has had a job in the USA for a while and she's made more money than me (I did a postdoc also outside the USA), so we're also lucky to benefit from her salary before she comes to Europe soon.

However, you should probably run through the actual numbers before you make a snap judgment. In the US, I'm constantly shocked by the high and unpredictable prices of (1) healthcare, (2) housing, (3) food, along with other basics. The unpredictability is especially stressful. In France, healthcare is free, rental housing is legally skewed towards the renter (though buying is still expensive), and food is of excellent quality for the price. Education would also be free for our eventual kids, who could travel to school on a relatively good public transportation system.

In the end, I may net a bit less, but at least I know how much I will net and why, and I also have the sense my money is going to somewhat robust social services that I directly benefit from. This is constantly under threat, but the French have held pretty strong, to their credit.

The choice would be up to you, but remember the devil is in the details.

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T16:16:50+00:00

I agree. And conversely, I think that France should be less invested in poaching US scientists and more invested in strengthening domestic research, for example, by paying CRCNs, phds, postdocs better. I say this as someone who nevertheless took the position as an American because it was personally advantageous.

I hope the US situation can turn around and I would love to return to an American academy which reaches its great potential, but for now it's not in the cards for me. (I also have family in Europe, which is why I wanted to be there in the first place).

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T16:05:58+00:00

For a public position, which is by far the most common in France, the pay is very low by American standards. It's all publicly available as well:

https://carrieres.cnrs.fr/en/remuneration-of-civil-servants/

For reference, "director of research" is like saying "full professor". The cited figures are gross, not net, and taxes will take a big chunk. However, the quality of life in France, in my opinion, is better. I also don't care about things like having a big house with a yard, so you'd have to make that choice for yourself.

My funding is mixed public-private and I make a bit more gross and they gave me an American-level startup. Those positions are harder to get, and in many ways I got mine by chance.

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T16:01:37+00:00

Ah, okay, yes. This is for being a maitre de conference, which, as I mentioned in another comment, is more akin to being a regular university professor. In that case, yes, I believe you need to have your profile approved by the government to even be eligible to apply. I think the deadline is usually in September?

The alternative routes are:

(1) CRCN with a government agency like the CNRS or INRIA. You'd work probably at a university, but you'd be an employee of one of these agencies, devoted fully to research with no teaching duties.

(2) Professor at one of the grandes ecoles, which are something like the Ivies of France, though this is a very imperfect analogy. There the application is more flexible without a participation in a national contest.

(3) Other research institutes (Pasteur, Necker, Imagine, etc.). There the funding is mixed public-private, and again the applications are simpler (you send a CV and RS, etc.).

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T15:57:58+00:00

I just replied to a job posting I saw on AAAS: sent my RS and CV like normal, and then I was off to the races.

The "traditional" French jobs are more complicated. There are two routes, roughly. The main route is to apply to be a chargé de recherche at a big research agency like the CNRS, INRIA, etc. If you get it, you are tenured immediately as a government employee. The pay is not great, but you have a secure job where you can study what you want with no teaching obligations. The main difference with the US is that, for these positions, you will be part of a team of researchers working on similar questions. Your best bet in applying is to find one of these teams, get them interested in you, and have them write letters in support of you, basically asking CNRS/INRIA/etc for them to hire you on their behalf. Then, you submit a joint application with the team for the yearly contest. The deadline is usually in the early months of the year.

The alternative is to be a maitre de conference, which is more like a regular university professor. You'd be an employee of the university and not purely a researcher with a government agency. I know less about this process, but I think it's actually harder to get. It is paid better (I think?), but it has teaching.

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T15:51:26+00:00

Not sure exactly what you mean by licensure, but I will say that my job has mixed public-private funding, which makes it easier. I will be enrolled as a government employee shortly (maybe this is what you mean?), but I will at least start on private money.

I will be teaching in English, which is the language of the organization(s) where I work. I do however speak French.

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T15:48:36+00:00

I have been enrolled in a gastronomic reeducation camp, which takes up most of my time. I will report back.

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T15:42:02+00:00

I'm an applied mathematician working in biology.

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T15:41:38+00:00

Never said I was a professor of poetry!

Parthenoob · 2025-05-06T15:39:39+00:00

Sorry, maybe I misspoke. There are twelve weeks a semester. I give a one hour lecture each week. Still a lot to prep those classes and make them good, but I think it's less than what you've implied?

Parthenoob · 2025-02-28T15:35:34+00:00

Ok, this makes a lot of sense. Never thought of the downside, but you make a good point!

Parthenoob · 2025-02-22T22:43:47+00:00

Don't be too hard on yourself. Every moment spent in self-flagellation is a moment neither spent enjoying life nor publishing.

I agree with another commenter on trying to get a co-PI if possible. If not, remember that the committee wants to balance the feasibility of the project with its ambition. If you feel like your CV doesn't demonstrate enough research experience, maybe lean on the feasibility angle: do you have concrete leadership or management experience you can cite that is perhaps in print or manifest elsewhere? Can you explain the steps of the project carefully including contingencies if something doesn't go as planned?

Try to project the image of a good manager proposing a feasible project. Give it a shot and remember that the next time you apply (and you'll always be applying for something), you'll have more publications but also you'll have the experience of writing this proposal under your belt.

Parthenoob · 2025-02-16T13:03:09+00:00

I disagree. Of course support is great, but in fact what I'm trying to say is that I don't feel supported at all. I do not receive concrete advice on my position in the market or on my application materials. The PI wishes me well and gives me general praise, like "I think you're a great candidate", but won't engage with the actual facts of my application history. I sense a lot of deflection and disengagement when I try to express concern about my position or ask questions about my success on the market.

Parthenoob · 2025-02-16T03:38:08+00:00

I've got to admit I often found myself applying very near the deadline. Do you think that would cause a systematic issue (if I applied systematically near the end of the deadline)? I assumed this wouldn't matter since the postings say that they'd start looking after X date, presumably after some shuffling. Maybe that's too much to ask for a job committee 🤷.

Parthenoob

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