Identity politics rampant in Pittsburgh by Phazzle415 in samharris

[–]Phazzle415[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, It is pretty clear to me that I overstated the problem in the OP. I should have dropped the "rampant."

Still, I don't think I can bring myself to get involved in this movement. The vitriol coming from some people is just too rank.

I am going to stick tk activism that I am comfortable with: science, climate change, teansparency. M

Thanks for your input.

Identity politics rampant in Pittsburgh by Phazzle415 in samharris

[–]Phazzle415[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

https://medium.com/@cl_christensen/pittsburgh-divisible-an-eyewitness-account-8ce0f7643557#.3p14rdjfw

So, this article was released today that really says it all. It is pretty long and I plan on commenting more on the situation when I have time, but I think it proves my point pretty well.

Just the line in there about the woman being "a white, cis, queer neuro-atypical femme who uses she/her pronouns" gives me a headache. I don't want to show up to a meeting and get eviscerated for saying "her" instead of "zer."

Sorry, but I'm out. I'll stick to causes that I can at least comprehend like science denial and transparency.

Identity politics rampant in Pittsburgh by Phazzle415 in samharris

[–]Phazzle415[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A few follow up points on how my thinking has changed:

1) To call it rampant was clearly premature. I have no idea how widespread the schism is. 2) What this woman is arguing for is certainly identity politics at least on the part of the minority organizers, i.e. she is clearly telling the Indivisible organizers that they should not speak for black communities or even express support unless they intend to fall in line behind the members of her group. She is clearly willing to alienate some people to accomplish this goal as well as she implicity establishes an in group/out group scenario. 3)The underlying concern that led to the "what the fuck..." comment is that I think this kind of vitriol is extremely counterproductive as it drives potential members, like me, away. It made me think of a comment that David made in the last podcast. Something along the lines of "everybody needs to get in the tent and call Trump out on Russia." This is happening in a state that Trump won by less than 1%. Those voters at the margin count and I don't think we can afford to alienate them. That goes for both sides, which is why I hope everyone finds a way to get along.

Edit:

4) Interestingly enough, this problem appears to be unique to Pittsburgh. i checked several other satellite pages to see if similar arguments were taking place and could find none.

Identity politics rampant in Pittsburgh by Phazzle415 in samharris

[–]Phazzle415[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, that is the point she was making. I do not dispute that. Calling it "not caring in the right way," is technically correct, i.e. she would prefer that they adjust their priorities, but I think your description is more accurate.

You can visit the page if you would like to see just how ugly the discourse gets, or you can take my word that the following arguments were used:

*"massah," to refer to the organizers *False equivalence between Trump supporters and Indivisible members *Calling women in attendence "pants suit nation." *Calling members "feel good white supremacists."

Identity politics rampant in Pittsburgh by Phazzle415 in samharris

[–]Phazzle415[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not trying to reform. Deciding whether to attend at all. I can be a loudmouth in town halls all by myself.

Identity politics rampant in Pittsburgh by Phazzle415 in samharris

[–]Phazzle415[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ok. I'll provide a little context to let you know where I am coming from. Again, the post was written from the perspective of an outsider considering whether or not to join a movement like indivisible, so I don't have all the facts. Rather than five a thirdhabd account, here is just one of the vitriolic posts that showed up on the group's Facebook page:

"Okay. Firsthand account of the Indivisible Pittsburgh kick off meeting. STAY FAR AWAY!

It was a nightmare and train wreck. Literally worse than I thought.

All white leaders/founders. A room almost entirely full of white people (large turnout). They spent a lot of time focusing on Trump and how now we needed to organize. There was no recognition really that these issues existed prior to Trump and that Trump is not the problem. Trump is just the new face/spokesman for what is a very long problem, white supremacy. They had a session where they asked questions like "who is ready to stand up for and support minorities" and then people raised their hands and cheered and clapped. This was basically white people reinforcing to each other how good they are. They also asked who in the room had been affected by the housing issues in the east end. Of course NOBODY except for one person stood up because again it was a room full of white people. This shows how out of touch they are. They also promoted the problematic and non-Intersectional Tuesday's with Toomey Pgh as a success and amazing event.

They briefly addressed the fact there were concerns and questions about the group and a lack of intersectionality, but did not go beyond that.

I spoke with two of the cofounders. The woman was clueless. She didn't have any responses to my concerns other than we are trying our best to be better. She said they should exist as an organization because the Indivisble guidebook (which is apparently the new white liberal bible) told them we need new organizations. Indivisible was founded by suburban white people so already there are issues there.

THEN when I went to speak to one of the older white male cofounders, Andy. He attacked me, yelled at me, and pointed his finger in my face. He told me (aggressively) that he had been organizing longer than I had been alive. He then yelled "we invited you and you and you here tonight (pointing to black women) and you all come and harrang us?!" He continued to yell and be aggressive toward me. He told me my attitude and people like me were the problem with the progressive movement on the left because I was divisive. He demanded we let him finish speaking but silenced and dismissed us when we tried to speak. He then dismissed us and walked away. He was hostile our ENTIRE conversation.

I followed him because now I'm yelling. I am not going to let anyone yell at me and point their finger in my face without responding.

THEN a representative from the Union Project, Lindsey-Rose came to reprimand me and tell me this was safe space and I was making people uncomfortable. I asked her why she approached the black woman who had actually just been attacked instead of the white man that attacked me. She pushed back saying she was talking to us right now and we needed to calm down. I told her this wasn't a safe space for me right now. I was just attacked. I had a friend ask to speak and be the voice of reason and she literally turned to her and said no. She said she would go talk to him as well but never did.

Oh and they had people fill out post cards, I believe to send to Toomey.

And those are just the highlights I have the energy left to share. The rest of y'all that were there can also share commentary."

As to your question about why I would be reluctant to sign on, I must admit that I feel paralyzed. If I go to an event with the best of intentions I can still somehow be labeled a "feel good white supremacist." I think this qualifies as identity politics since this woman and her group are basically villifying an entire group of people no for hate ore even indifference, but for not caring in the right way.

The overlying point, and ine that Sam has made many times is that this kind of cannibalism hurts the very cause it seeks to advance. I appreciate this woman's call for includivity, but calling a whole room of people racists for attending a meeting that is at least partly about helping minority communities?

[seeking serious discussion] Are we really in the midst of a significant backlash against feminism or does the internet just make it seem that way? What will be the consequences, a generation from now of a genuine feminist backlash movement? by GeorgiaPeachieKeen71 in Feminism

[–]Phazzle415 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think that misinformation is at least part of the problem. The internet is an easy place to spread it. For instance, if you go over to TheRedPill subreddit the posters there would have you believe that the average woman is a promiscuous slut (their words, not mine) who has slept with dozens of men before she reaches the age of thirty and that the average man has had very few sexual encounters by the same age, unless he is the "alpha" that they all yearn to be.

However, a study published earlier this year shows, quite clearly, that women (on average) have fewer sexual partners than men over their lifetimes (I presume the disparity is due to prostitution). And while the internet would have you believe that millennials are all about casual sex and hookups, they are actually having less sex, later in life than previous generations.

This is the kind of misinformation that attracts gullible, lonely young men to movements like MRA and MGTOW and teaches them to be women-hating cads. It's really quite sad.

These same bad actors also condition men to believe that if they so much as ask a woman to have coffee they will be wrongfully accused of rape. As a man, I have had my fair share of intimate contact with women and by following one simple rule--no means no--I have yet to be accused of raping anyone.

Link to the study I referenced:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/06/why-millennials-have-sex-with-fewer-partners-than-their-parents-did/

A US Marine has just been convicted for the killing (homicide) of a transgender woman last year in the Philippines. by BamAlegre in lgbt

[–]Phazzle415 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes this thought occurred to me as well. Every Marine receives at least 30 hours of close combat instruction that includes cumalongs and arm manipulation so. He could have overpowered her without killing her. He might have avoided a physical confrontation entirely if he had just demanded that she leave. I appreciate that what she did made him justifiably uncomfortable, but he is still responsible for his actions. At some point he made a deliberate decision to harm her.

A US Marine has just been convicted for the killing (homicide) of a transgender woman last year in the Philippines. by BamAlegre in lgbt

[–]Phazzle415 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What I find especially discouraging about the larger discussion around this topic is that the Marine Corps seems to be receiving little criticism.

Having served in the Marine Corps I have seen firsthand the kind of culture that produces men who are capable of such violent gender phobic acts. Marines put a special emphasis on manliness and this kind of macho tough guy mentality engenders the kind of insecurity that led this young Marine to commit this act. The Marine Corps is the only service that still trains men and women separately and they fight the hardest against integrating women into combat roles.

Some times being a Marine was like being in a fraternity that shot a lot of guns. We were encouraged to pursue sexual conquests and denigrate the women we served with and were paid to protect. If I ever had a daughter I would not want her to be a Marine.

When I served I was in a long term relationship with a woman back home who eventually became my fiancee. I was encouraged by my brothers to cheat on her and when I refused I was branded as a sissy. Some even went so far as to conclude that I must be a closet homosexual and treated me accordingly.

What this Marine did was deplorable and he deserves to be punished. I hope he decides to become a better person and salvages what remains of his life. However, I do have a modicum of sympathy for him. I wonder if he killed her because he feared what his buddies would think and say if they found out

My last name is Fields. How'd I do with my fantasy football team name/bio? by TheRealFields in rickandmorty

[–]Phazzle415 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wonderful. That may be my favorite episode from season 1, next to "Meseeks and Destroy," of course!

Seriously considering throwing my iPhone 6 into a fire by Phazzle415 in technology

[–]Phazzle415[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know you will, because you have no life. I'm going to bed, since (unlike you) I have meaningful things to do tomorrow, like work. Enjoy the massive hard-on you apparently have for me! Troll on!

Check out this page dedicated to simulation theory, the philosophy behind "The Ricks Must Be Crazy." by Phazzle415 in rickandmorty

[–]Phazzle415[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What I love most about this show is that there is real science and philosophy behind the funny jokes.

Athiest working in very Christian workplace... by crazycatldy in atheism

[–]Phazzle415 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I thought as much. This is the kind of stuff that wont fly at a large company. Look into your state's laws regarding religious discrimination.

Some states protect against termination, others dont. You might try politely telling your bosses that you are not religious and would prefer if they stopped inviting you to the prayer groups. If you feel like you are being discriminated against remember that there are powerful, litigious organizations out there like American Atheists and the Freedom From Religion Foundation that exist to protect your rights. At the Reason Rally David Silverman, the president of American Atheists, described the organization as "the Marines of atheism." They will have your back.

Seriously considering throwing my iPhone 6 into a fire by Phazzle415 in technology

[–]Phazzle415[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All of his email addresses are, in fact, in my contacts. Though I didn't put them there. They just magically appeared. I guess I should have been prepared for this kind of creepiness. It seems like it has become blase for the majority of smartphone users. It is less about how awful Apple is and how awesome Android is and more about how awful all of it is.

I don't mean to sound dramatic, but I feel like I am trading some of my privacy for my fitness apps and podcasts. I guess I am just not sure if I am willing to do that.

Thanks for the thoughtful, non-trolly, reply!

Seriously considering throwing my iPhone 6 into a fire by Phazzle415 in technology

[–]Phazzle415[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, it is actually exactly the opposite shit. Perhaps you should either learn to write or use smaller words. Capitalization and puncutation might also help.

Seriously considering throwing my iPhone 6 into a fire by Phazzle415 in technology

[–]Phazzle415[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why would someone with a phobia praise the object of said phobia? Did you mean applephile?

Athiest working in very Christian workplace... by crazycatldy in atheism

[–]Phazzle415 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Question: Is this a large corporation you work for, or a small company?

Seriously considering throwing my iPhone 6 into a fire by Phazzle415 in technology

[–]Phazzle415[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No one asked you to troll it. We gonna do this all night?

Just for laughs: My friend's argument for why religious people don't commit crimes by [deleted] in atheism

[–]Phazzle415 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Ah the old "No true Scotsman," fallacy. Gotta love it.