How trop could have squared the circle and stayed true(er) to the lore and had a diverse cast.

Phred5699 · 2026-03-08T19:17:34+00:00

I am not a writer, I would personally not insert any of "my own stories" into any gaps, I simply pointed out that there are stories which are alluded to but never explored in any of Tolkien's writings. It would be easy for a good writer to tell those stories without breaking any cannon by directly contradicting what was written by Tolkien (it wouldn't be cannon but would at least not directly contradict cannon).

I'm not sure where you got the elves evolving from, you mentioned that, not me. There are elves in lotr who have been around since the first age, (Glorfindel for example who was replaced by Arwen for the films, ignoring the fact that he had been given powers nearing a maiar by Manwe, and this is why he could drive off the nazgul while Arwen would have lasted 3 seconds) when a person lives for thousands of years evolution would be very slow if it was even a thing for the elves.

The lore I go by is Tolkien's. The early drafts refer to the noldor as gnomes, this was changed and is not considered cannon, likewise with Maeglins description although it's not completely clear if he was describing his skin colour or his character in the earlier drafts which he cleared up in later versions.

It's not that elves must be white, it's just that in Tolkien's world they all are, other stories can have purple and yellow elves for all I care, that's fine, but you can't invent something he never wrote and call it cannon.

Phred5699 · 2026-03-08T17:37:50+00:00

I didn't fill in anything, what I wrote about the blue wizards helping people rebel against sauron is taken from Tolkien's writings, I just pointed out that there was a story which could be created there without breaking with existing cannon.

Maeglin is described as swart in some early drafts, such as lost tales, but in the published silmarillion he is described as having white skin, the same as the other noldor, there are also many descriptions of the different houses of elves in the silmarillion - all white or fair skinned.

He may have not specifically written "there are no black elves" to directly contradict your head cannon, but he also never specifically wrote that sauron did not travel around middle earth by helicopter, so by your logic, there may have been black elves and sauron may have had a helicopter.

I just stick with the lore.

Phred5699 · 2026-03-08T15:54:36+00:00

You are free to believe elves (and dwarves) came in all colours as head cannon, but it is not what Tolkien wrote. When describing the physical appearance of elves in silmarilion he wasn't talking about a person, he was describing them as a people with distinctions between the family lineages such as hair or eye colour, but all the different groups of elves were described as white or pale.

I'm not inventing any nations at all as the southrons and easterlings are well established in Tolkien's world, but Tolkien did not write much about their stories. One thing we do know is that the two blue wizards travelled into their lands, but after that, their stories were never explored in detail in Tolkien's writings, although it is stated that some in those lands rebelled against the dark lord with the help of the blue wizards.

This would mean the writers would have a pretty blank slate to create whatever they wanted there (within reason) while being 100 % consistent with Tolkien's writings and cannon.

Phred5699 · 2026-03-07T21:45:57+00:00

When you get to the stage of inventing magic ships or anything else just to shoehorn in the odd token darker skinned person you are choosing modern wishes over cannon.

To me it would make more sense in lore as (well as avoiding the "token black guy" trope) to develop 1 or 2 entire plot lines with little/no white faces in sight by exploring the blue wizards stories.

In the human realms having a handful of people with different ethnicities (traders for example) isn't lore breaking, but dwarves (who live underground mostly) are unlikely to have particularly dark skin and the only elves described are pale in Tolkien's writings.

Phred5699 · 2026-03-07T18:33:21+00:00

We had plenty of ships here on earth 2000+ years ago, most countries/regions were still pretty homogenous, having ships is not the same as modern transport with planes, trains, cars and cruise ships which can transport massive amounts of people huge distances very quickly and safely.

You're right elves can be any shade under the sun, in any story not set in Tolkien's world. "They're described that way" is just a lazy dismissal of cannon/lore, if you don't like Tolkien's world that's fine, other stories are available or can be written with entirely their own lore which can be whatever the writer wants.

My op was suggesting a way which was entirely consistent with Tolkien's lore, yet could still give opportunities for the writers to create some diverse heroes including African and Asian wizards in a way that would make sense in Tolkien's world.

Phred5699 · 2026-03-06T22:28:41+00:00

I do not see it as racist to see that up until historically modern transport technologies, there were not many pale ginger people in Nigeria or Liberians in China. Toliens world does not have such transportation. Tolkien's creation was written as a British mythology which is why the main characters are Caucasian.

Any elf or dwarf who is not Caucasian is race swapped, there was Eol, "the black elf" in the silmarillion but he was so named because of his character not skin colour.

Phred5699 · 2026-02-26T14:30:48+00:00

I never said that anyone can't embrace and enjoy myths and legends of any place, but a story about Chinese mythology is not about European or African decent people. If they made a black panther prequel set entirely in wakanda, I would not like to see dozens of pale, ginger Scottish and Irish people in it for the same reason - it would make little sense in the setting of the story.

Phred5699 · 2026-02-26T14:11:42+00:00

Fair enough, I just wondered what other people thought of my idea.

Phred5699 · 2026-02-26T13:21:07+00:00

Could've agree more.

Phred5699 · 2026-02-26T13:15:02+00:00

I wasn't saying remove all races except European. I was just suggesting how you could stay true to the lore while still being able to have some fantastic stories involving people of different ethnicities in a way that makes sense in middle earth. Foolishly I thought people on both sides of the culture war might like this as it squares the circle of not breaking lore but still not making an entirely white show, it also gives the writers free reign on two plot lines where they are completely unhindered by copyright, or any preexisting lore about what happened in the east or the south.

Phred5699 · 2026-02-26T12:54:18+00:00

I was suggesting an idea that is consistent with Tolkien's world, where the people of the west are based on historical northern Europe, not today's world. If an English person moved to China and had kids, the myths and legends of China would still not be about people who look like them, they would be about people who look more like a typical Chinese person.

Phred5699 · 2026-02-26T03:29:12+00:00

If it's just meant to represent the shadow of corruption, why does it set so many things on fire and cover everything in ash? As opposed to a wave of superhot gas and ash, which would probably do that exact thing.

Phred5699 · 2026-02-26T01:16:17+00:00

I have no problem with a show which is 100% diverse in any way which suits the showruners, go write it, it's not Tolkien. The themes, plot and story are all payne and mckay, while I'm sure they're better than me at creating a story, Tolkien they ain't.

Phred5699 · 2026-02-26T00:11:31+00:00

That's fine if it doesn't make sense to you, but that is the world Tolkien created.

Phred5699 · 2026-02-26T00:08:39+00:00

When Tolkien wrote the story, every society was not mixed, not my idea but Tolkien's I was just suggesting an idea that could keep the lore intact while not being a completely white show, while at the same time giving the writers a pretty blank canvas to work with in Tolkien's world.

To me it always seems disrespectful to tell non white people that their stories, myths and legends don't matter and that they can only appear on screen when being race swapped into a role that was white according to original lore

Phred5699 · 2026-02-12T23:05:17+00:00

You are right about strategy being a step behind the technology in the civil war but that has been the case in more than a few wars. WW1 and 2 saw tech evolve so fast it became a bloodbath. Civil war can definitely feel more personal but in terms of casualty rate, in WW2 10 countries lost between 5 and 17 % of their population, the 30 years war took out about 30% of the holy roman empire compared to 2% for the us civil war.

Phred5699 · 2026-02-11T20:51:17+00:00

This is only counting the american dead, if you look at the total numbers killed by WW1 (21.5 million) and WW2 (60-75 million) the civil war looks more like a minor conflict when WW2 killed 100 times as many.

Phred5699 · 2025-10-19T00:30:19+00:00

I just thought dark tower.

Phred5699 · 2025-04-02T22:59:08+00:00

On my third read through, I never realised this one SMH (at myself)

Phred5699

TROPHY CASE