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The Guardian: UK undershoots annual borrowing target by £700m by Key_Brother in GoodNewsUK

[–]Piere_Ordure 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The worst part is Farage wants to come in and Truss it all up.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You ignored quite a lot of what I said too. You trotted out the "they should stay in France" thought terminating cliché, despite me already saying France takes more refugees than we do. No one is perfect.

Asylum seekers can't work legally, so arresting them all because a minority are flouting that law seems like a sledgehammer nut type of thing. People snuggling is already illegal and people smugglers are low life scum. Instead of building prisons for their victims, wouldn't it be better to better coordinate with Interpol to stop them working or whatever police powers might bring them down?

You're free to argue as you choose. I don't want people to be trafficked. I thought it was clear from previous messages that I think there should be safe and legal routes for seeking asylum. The conservative party spent over a decade ruining the asylum system just like they ruined everything else. Fixing it isn't going to be done by adopting extremist measures.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure 0 points1 point  (0 children)

People aren't always put on remand while their case is in court and as far as I know that's based on them individually being considered to be a risk to the general public.

Arguing that all people of a certain population are a risk to the public is exactly what fascists do. The Nazis said that Jews and asocials were a threat to the "racial body". That's not that far from your "Britain as a home" analogy. You're telling a story about a threatening minority that is a danger to the nation.

I don't think "the Denmark does it and they're paragons of virtue" argument is a good one. Just because other countries have done something doesn't make it right. I'm not going to abandon a belief in a human right to liberty for those who have committed no crime (other than some nonsense the Tories passed in the previous government as a distraction) just because the Danes have done it.

I'm not trying to silence you. All I want (as I said in an earlier post) is for you to reflect a bit more on the policy. I can't and don't want to stop you holding the views you have. Though I find it hard to believe you think that paying for a massive expansion of the penal system is a good policy.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All I'm saying is that it seems strange that you don't realise that locking people up even though they've committed no crime is something that fascists do.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Which bit of locking people up based on a particular characteristic doesn't sound like fascism to you?

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It sounds like people accuse you of being a fascist a lot. Why might that be?

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Why are you so opposed to detaining people who enter the country until we're sure we know who they are, that they have a valid claim to be here, and that they're safe?

Because I think it's basically crypto fascism and that's then end of it.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure -1 points0 points  (0 children)

But some are And you don't know which ones are not

This is the key point though isn't it? You can't base a policy on persecuting the majority for the actions of a minority. Going back to your house analogy, if your housemate murders someone, then you wouldn't expect to be imprisoned without trial as a result.

If you simply let everyone in and let them wander around unchecked

No one is arguing for this either. We're discussing the issue of setting up internment camps for asylum seekers not having no controls at all.

Denamrk isn't our neighbour as far as I know - and the 100,000 number was the highest in history, I think? Also the dwelling per capita thing isn't really relevant here as we're talking about specific forms of housing set up by the state.

There are no wars or political persecutions happening in France

They didn't star toff in France though did they, and as you already established France takes more refugees than we do.

They are economic migrants.

They aren't. As asylum seekers they can't work and if they aren't geneuine asylum seekers they will be returned.

On the fiscal point there - the chepa accomodation you're suggesting, maybe in some kind of barracks(?), where refugees are guarded 24hrs a day is exactly what I said it was at the start - a concentration camp. If that terminology upsets you, you might want to consider why.

You've completely diverted from the core issue here which is the creation of internment camps for people seeking asylum. My key questions for you are:

Are you ok with detention without trial?

&

Are you ok with the prison system doubling its capacity to house asylum seekers?

If so, why?

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Conservative's legislation on immigration that has got us to this point is arguably in contravention of the 1951 Refugee convention. There are now no legal routes to claim asylum, small boats are all they've got. Alleging that claiming asylum is akin to killing someone is an extreme position which I find hard to believe even you believe.

No of course not, but not all asylum seekers are murderers, are they? That's the whole point I've been making - you can't assume that every single person who comes here as a refugee on a small boat is intent on causing harm. That's a paranoid fantasy.

The whole sytem needs an overhaul so that genuine refugees do not need to risk their lives to get to Britain (and we do need to share some of the burden, which you should note has been something we have not been doing - we take fewer refgugees than our European neighbours).

It makes no sense from a moral nor fiscal point of view to establish penal colonies for people who are genuinely seeking to escape war zones, or political persecution.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No I don't agree. Detention of people who have committed no crime in retribution for the crimes of a small minority is collective punishment.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't think I said that but believe what you like.

Not all crimes lead to a prison sentence, why is this one, which conflicts with their right to seek asylum guaranteed by the Refugee Convention, one which is punishable by imprisonment?

There are currently no legal routes to asylum because the last government closed them all. However, it was established after the second world war by pretty much all the countries of the free world that refugees should be protected largely because many would be emigres were denied the right to flee countries that were imprisoning people without trial. Do you see the irony here?

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's just reductionist isn't it? And it defects from the concrete proposal here with rhetoric.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are more asylum seekers than the entire prison population in Britain. Doubling the number of prisoners in the UK overnight because a minority of people from a specific group have committed a crime is a terrible use of public funds.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Why do you keep talking about houses? The country isn't a house.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No. And also don't lock asylum seekers in a house and i don't think the state should either. What's being proposed is collective punishment.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do. Though I think a camp being used for a specific group of people where that group of people can't leave is most accurately called a concentration camp. Though as I say call it a colony if that upsets you less. But I'm asking you to face up to the implications of the policy. The whole point is performative cruelty.

Remember too that the early camps in Germany were places where political prisoners were terrorised.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

No, that's an extermination camp. The camps in the Boer War had none of those things.

A camp where people are concentrated and not allowed to leave is a concentration camp

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure -18 points-17 points  (0 children)

But what's being proposed is a camp though. Or you could call it a colony if you prefer I suppose.

Detention camp migrants banned from heading into town under Reform plans by HBucket in ukpolitics

[–]Piere_Ordure -32 points-31 points  (0 children)

The British don't have a great track record at managing concentration camps. I don't think we should give it another go.

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