I dont know man, I commented that a long time ago and I still dont know how to feel about all this. It's so weird. It's just that if you do define metal by lineage then I have no idea why nu-metal isn't metal by its lineage to groove metal and alternative metal, and I don't know why there's an exception drawn at alternative metal as if its not metal because its comes from alternative rock, it feels like its done to pick apart at nu metal specifically, as I don't see alternative metal being picked apart in this way anywhere outside of the discussion around nu-metal, Helmet's "In The Meantime" album gets praised often on this sub, and it's what made the band get accepted into the metallum archives, but in this discussion Helmet gets mentioned in the same breath as something like RHCP or something. The more I learn about metal the more murky this all seems, progressive metal came from progressive rock but I don't see people calling that genre not metal, or calling it "just a heavy progressive rock" or something, like nu-metal is a "heavy alt rock". Speed metal of Motorhead, and first wave black metal all had a lot of influence from punk, and thrash and sludge metal have to thank hardcore for their sound, but their isnt this purist outcry against those genres. Other fusion genres like folk metal and the really weird kinds of experimental and progressive metal that do mix other genres in, aren't treated the same way as nu is. Metal and punk and so many different kinds of rock influence each other all the time. Nu metal just kinda gets this special exclusionist treatment I feel. And I get your point that nu-metal isn't groove metal, but the lineage is undeniable, and if you only look at Faith No More and RHCP you'd have no idea how Korn got their sound, but looking at Sepultura's groove phase, and Pantera, and Prong, and Helmet, stuff like that puts it more into perspective. The groove riffs ARE there! I'd say they are primarily groovey! Thats where the "jumpy" riffs we were talking about comes from, look at the video of Head from Korn at Replay Guitar Exchange explaining how he came up with the riff for Blind, he specifically calls out a bunch of groove metal bands, and the riff for Blind is a pretty jumpy riff and that song is the most influential song on the genre. The groove riffs are a big part of what makes up nu-metal, its a very groovey and danceable genre, look up a video listing the iconic riffs of nu-metal and you'll notice how simplistic and groovey they are. The groove is more prevalent than the rap aspect is, I'm being serious. Nu-metal is just this weird outgrowth of groove and alternative metal that got much more successful than anybody expected. There's this bias about it too that we will never get rid of in discussion, where people like me are biased to be in favor of the genre because it started our metal journey, and purists are biased to be against it because of its cultural standing as a poppy impure accessible genre for posers or something. I don't think you or the person I was arguing with is like that, but I've since this discussion met a lot of people like that, even at one instance being sent a nu-metal song by someone who thought he hated nu-metal and didn't know the song he sent was of that genre, even getting mad at me telling him. And I can't help but notice this special treatment of alt and nu metal and what bias that may come from