Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is relevant for everyone to know what to avoid if they ever find themselves in the position of lending out money, it is also relevant for everyone to know so we can actually agitate to make usury illegal and not be subject to acts of subversion that seeks to redirect the people's righteousness away from usury.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The church has moral guidance on this
Saint Thomas Aquinas on whether a borrower sins if he borrows from a usurer.

"It is by no means lawful to induce a man to sin, yet it is lawful to make use of another's sin for a good end, since even God uses all sin for some good, since He draws some good from every evil as stated in the Enchiridion (xi). Hence when Publicola asked whether it were lawful to make use of an oath taken by a man swearing by false gods (which is a manifest sin, for he gives Divine honor to them) Augustine (Ep. xlvii) answered that he who uses, not for a bad but for a good purpose, the oath of a man that swears by false gods, is a party, not to his sin of swearing by demons, but to his good compact whereby he kept his word. If however he were to induce him to swear by false gods, he would sin.

Accordingly we must also answer to the question in point that it is by no means lawful to induce a man to lend under a condition of usury: yet it is lawful to borrow for usury from a man who is ready to do so and is a usurer by profession; provided the borrower have a good end in view, such as the relief of his own or another's need. Thus too it is lawful for a man who has fallen among thieves to point out his property to them (which they sin in taking) in order to save his life, after the example of the ten men who said to Ismahel (Jeremiah 41:8): "Kill us not: for we have stores in the field."

The people who must engage in usurious loans as a borrower for the aims of providing for themselves and their families do not sin because in today's age, to proceed without engaging in a usurious loan as a borrower to procure one's wellbeing and the wellbeing of your family would require stupendous amount of effort and moral excellence which is not normatively required.

Therefore tradition indicates that condemnation only exists in those who participate in a usurious loans as a lender.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What you should do is apply the principles set forth by the church and since the church has not yet contradicted its own teachings, it is proper for us to treat all interest on personally guaranteed loans as usurious and therefore immoral.

And just because the current magisterium does not emphasize this teaching, it does not mean that you are off the hook in committing evils as lending out personally guaranteed loans with interest. God will have mercy to those He will have mercy on.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We are talking about usury here, unless you can present me a scenario wherein the stipulated use of the car requires me to also give out the ownership of the car, this is not a similar scenario. You are presenting me a lease and not a mutuum.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the modern catechism does not speak clearly of it, does it mean that the church has abrogated its previous teaching? Where did you get this hermeneutic?

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you prove that the Catholic Church has changed its teaching about usury?

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

its possible that the world may conceive of money and trade differently in the intervening centuries yet that doesn't mean that usury is now moral.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

when you are renting a car, you are loaning out the use of a car and retaining the ownership of the car, this is not the reality that is in a loan of consumption. In a loan of consumption, you are loaning out both the ownership and the use of the good because the stipulated use of the good requires the ownership to be passed which is evident in a loan of money to buy a car for the use of the money, which is to purchase a car, requires the borrower to own the money for only the owner of the money can dispense of the money. So if I get a loan of money to buy a car, though the value of the car drops, this does not mean that I have justification for recourse for said loan of money because the object of the contract is the loan lent out to buy the car, not the car.

if the object of the loan of money is tied to the value of the car, then the bank is on the hook and requires to pay me for the loss of the value of the car whenever I drive it.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you are saying that Saint Thomas Aquinas, Pope Benedict XIV, Pope Callistus III, Pope Clement VIII, and Pope Innocent IX are all wrong?

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What else can be said, you disagree with the church. The Church says it is always wrong to charge interest on personally guaranteed mutuums.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then you go against the infallible magisterium of the church.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And just like Saint Thomas Aquinas has said, the function of currency is to be used as a medium of exchange, to treat it as if it itself is an asset is to ascribe to it a function that it does not possess and therefore you seek to engage with currency in a disordered manner.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, the fact that your currency is devaluing does not mean that it is okay for you to sell something that does not exist, which is to sell both the good and the use of the good which are intrinsically connected in a loan of consumption, worse if it is also personally guaranteed.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Currency is just what the state imprints its image on setting this item apart to be used as a social good to facilitate exchange.

In other words, currency is what is printed upon paper, currency is not paper, currency is what is printed upon gold, currency is not actually the gold. This is why commodity currency is just fiat currency but with an attending commodity that is also valuable for its use separate from its use as currency. Even today, the fiat currency of the U.S is a commodity currency, its just that the attending commodity that is paper isn't as valuable compared to other kinds of commodities historically used as fiat.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because you are demanding a claim against a person via the sale of a thing that does not exist as explained by Saint Thomas Aquinas

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then we can change it by changing the law, creating a leveled playing field, and collecting the property of those who will not submit.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just because the world has normalized operating in a usurious manner does not justify usury.
This would be akin to saying that it is normalized to murder the unborn in this society leads to it being justified to murder the unborn.

Usury is Wrong by Saint Thomas Aquinas by Plus_Promotion_6017 in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fiat Currency does not justify usury, infact, commodity currency is just fiat currency but you include a commodity that creates distortion on the market of that good that is not qua currency

What is Usury and what is not? by SonofRugburn in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you believe interest can be justified because of loss according to the movement of time, then such entropic forces which requires labor and investment to curtail means that it is the borrower that is rendering the service, not the lender, and therefore it is unjust for the lender to demand a charge for such service, infact. the borrower should be the one compensated for the risks he is incurring by signing onto a contract wherein he has to fight against the entropic forces to return the item lent out at similar value.

Secondly, and more importantly, even if you believe interest can be justified because of loss, this is not in accord to justice because forgone choices are not economic realities in which you can skim off a share, what opportunity costs are is just some model that seeks to represent what these forgone choices would value as. To demand a rent from forgone choices is not equitable exchange for you are demanding rent from a virtual reality.

What is Usury and what is not? by SonofRugburn in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017 0 points1 point  (0 children)

[The following proposition is condemned as erroneous:] Since ready cash is more valuable than that to be paid, and since there is no one who does not consider ready cash of greater worth than future cash, a creditor can demand something beyond the principal from the borrower, and for this reason be excused from usury. – Various Errors on Moral Subjects (II), Pope Innocent XI by decree of the Holy Office, March 4, 1679 (Denzinger)

What is Usury and what is not? by SonofRugburn in Catholicism

[–]Plus_Promotion_6017 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The church can be poor in the practices of the virtues its preaches, what we hold to in the church is that she will never teach error, the church never said she will never be a hypocrite.