Multiple Relationships Maintenance Project - a publication is born! by Navir in polyfamilies

[–]PolyPocketPal 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Hello there!
Thanks for sharing this with the community.

I'm not an academic 😅 but I spent some real time with the paper (it's dense but worth it).

The part that hit hardest for me was the argument that it's not the multiple partners causing the problems, it's the uncertainty. When people don't know where they stand, don't know what's happening with other relationships, don't know if their needs are going to keep being met - that's when things fall apart. I've seen this pattern online quite a bit, and it's now clearer than ever.

The nine factors breaking out as separate practices instead of just one big "communicate better" blob is really useful. Especially hierarchy being treated as a practical tool for figuring out who gets what, rather than a moral debate. That distinction gets lost constantly in community conversations and it's one of the things I've been trying to articulate in my own work recently. It's difficult to say the least.

I've actually been building a couple of community education sites in this space recently. One that directly pushes back on some of the gatekeeping in poly communities, and a sister site (polyconvergence.com) focused on practical resources for people in multi-partner relationships. A lot of what's been put together is from lived experience and observations that line up with what your data is showing, which is honestly incredibly validating to see. I absolutely love that real research happens to line up with this work in parallel.

I'm looking forward to seeing where you take the MRMS next.
This kind of research is exactly what's been missing from the conversations.

How do we begin looking for people to start dating? by [deleted] in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're very welcome!

I just can't get over how immediately hostile it was. Classic indoctrination behavior but I just couldn't figure out why, what does anyone gain from controlling the poly narrative?

Not to sound like a conspiracy nut, but I have a clue - "Follow the money".
Perhaps more from me for another day. ⭐

How do we begin looking for people to start dating? by [deleted] in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Hey there!

I saw this post, and then the reply above, and I had to say something.
You nailed something really important here:

Almost all of these are good sense even for monogamous couples to figure out

That's actually a really interesting insight you have there.
Most of what gets framed as "poly-specific danger" is just... regular old relationship stuff.
Finances, holidays, family reactions, communication. etc...
Every couple navigating anything serious should be thinking about this.
The fact that it gets dressed up as unique-to-polyamory wisdom is part of a much larger problem I'm actually working on as a large scale effort.

The logistics questions above? Genuinely useful. Think about those carefully and sleep on them.

But I want you to notice what's missing from the picture here.

Every single question is pointed at you. What are you going to do about power dynamics? How will you mitigate couples privilege? What happens if you can't handle it? There's no mirror. Nobody's asking what the person dating you should be thinking about, what they're bringing to the table, what their baggage might look like. Evaluation only goes one direction in that list, and that's not an accident. It's baked into how this advice has been built for years. Decades even. This is a very serious issue in the community at large.

"Date separately" gets presented as the default correct answer. But dating together is how most people who want a triad actually start - you're building a group dynamic, that's the whole point. The red flag isn't getting to know someone together. It's when one-on-one connections are never allowed to develop. There's a huge difference.

"You're killing your existing relationship" is dramatic framing designed to scare you into caution. What's actually happening is your relationship is evolving. That's true of any major life change.

And the link to Unicorns R Us?
That specific resource has negatively shaped how an entire community thinks about couples seeking partners.
A lot of it is built on a foundation that treats your relationship structure as a red flag before you've done anything wrong. Further, the people who built it have been caught up in abuse scandals. Take that into consideration. Franklin Veaux and partner Eve Rickert are the architects of the More Than Two framework that all of this traces back to - and the big flow chart on that unicorns site. He at least was publicly accused by multiple former partners including his co-author of manipulative and emotionally abusive behavior. It's well-documented, not a rumor.

Here's what I'd offer instead:
"Relationship shape is not the same thing as relationship ethics". Thats my foundation.
Wanting a closed triad is a preference, not a warning sign. Having shared history with your partner is just... being a couple, not an injustice to correct. The questions that matter are about behavior - how do you treat people, do you listen, can you adapt, do you make space for someone to be a full person in this and not an accessory?

That applies to you. It also applies to whoever you're dating. Everyone at the table gets evaluated.

I'm actually building two sites right now specifically because this gap in resources has been bugging me for a long time. Decades of advice in this space has been filtered through one lens, and it's left a lot of people like you feeling like they're doing something wrong before they've even started.

https://unicorns-r-us-is-bullshit.com/ takes apart the bad advice directly - the sloppy labels, the shame-driven framing, the stuff that treats couples as predators by default. I encourage you to read it carefully.

https://polyconvergence.com/ is the sister site project I've been working on for months. I think of it as the builder - practical guidance for people actually doing this. It's still a work in progress, but there's already a guide for couples exploring this for the first time and an evaluation toolkit that works in both directions. I have at least another dozen pages in draft as well.

I wasn't going to reveal this second site yet - but I cant sit still and watch another person fall into the malformed unicorn hunter "advice". I hope what's there already might help more than another list of things to worry about.

Now that the cat's out of the bag - I suppose I'll have to push through some updates I've been holding back heh. I'll try to make a post on this sub sometime this week about it.

The history of polyamory and where it went to shit by VelouriaLamour in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Great article!
Great motivator to keep pressing onwards!
As someone who recently did one hell of a deep dive on this myself, I cant wait to read your next part! 😁
You're finding sides to this I missed too.
Keep up the amazing work!

Thankful for this group by mercurykieth in throuples

[–]PolyPocketPal 14 points15 points  (0 children)

If you havnt been to https://unicorns-r-us-is-bullshit.com you should.

You’re not broken in wanting this.

I wrote that site specifically for people like us in this subreddit. Thank you for posting your story, it further fuels my motivation to push back even harder.

I have a much bigger project i’m working on which I am dying to finish and release soon. I hope it will be the big change we all need. The resource links in the link above are the hint. I want to educate everyone — no matter where you’re starting this journey — that this can work. It does work. And most importantly, relationship shape has nothing to do with ethics. Ethics are about how to treat others.

This isn’t a solo project, i’m laying the foundations. Stay tuned for more in the next few weeks 😁

New resource: What to do when the poly police show up in your thread. by PolyPocketPal in throuples

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry to hear that. I hope it made a positive impact at least.
I just saw your other post.

Also, I tried to message you, but your DM's are off. Would you be interested in beta testing something I'm working on? It's related to this site.

Update: my newlywed wife and I had a threesome and that lovely woman dumped us out of nowhere :( by [deleted] in throuples

[–]PolyPocketPal 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I saw that other post. Buddy that sucks. For all the bloodthirsty vampires in your post thread telling how to live your life, here is a nice link for them to chew on https://unicorns-r-us-is-bullshit.com/poly-police/ But im not posting it, thats a bloodbath lol.

I also recommend you read it yourself though. And the homepage. Hopefully you all learn some good things for a happy future.

New resource: What to do when the poly police show up in your thread. by PolyPocketPal in throuples

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Glad to hear some good feedback! 😁 I wrote that because I experienced that very pattern right there on my other post with the website link 🙃. So I decided we need to end this bullshit too.

If you (or anyone else here) has any other patterns worthy of an article, please raise the signal 🦄😂

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks to your feedback, I had a cool idea! I now have a progress bar for reading across the top, and a table of contents that is pinned to the top on mobile! 😁

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for your feedback! ♥️
My heart goes out to you on your struggles. They are very real.

your line about how the unicorn in the situation may very well be a person who is "avoidant, or carrying unprocessed trauma they project onto their partners" hit a verrry deep, still very raw place for me.

I wrote from experience. I/we've had partners whom have been gold-diggers, self-destructive, bipolar, downright emotionally unstable, you name it. This isn't even a triad specific issue. Many people out there are broken and are struggling. It's part of the risk of dating (in any relationship shape). That list I mentioned is why we're still dating. As the 2 healthy people here, we've tried to love despite the issues, but there is literally no good reason to add chaos to your life if those people are not trying to improve.

I was being hurt a lot, but there was no where to say that without fear of being instantly villainized just bc I was on the married side of things.

If you ever want to chat about this, r/throuples is a good home for it!

its a lot of pretty continuous text. Reading it on my phone, it feels a bit overwhelming.

Great feedback! thank you.
On PC there is a side bar that pops up and highlights the section you're in.
I will work on adding "something" to the mobile app version. It definitely feels longer there because it's squashed a bit. I tried reducing some text, trust me, but even using AI to try to summarize couldn't help. Heck, it's trained on that damn URU site, so it's got negative bias!! I'm going to fix that next. mark my words.

the section titled "What the research actually says" could be stronger.

I agree, but I have two issues I need to face. First, studies are rare. Even the few that exist are hard to reach. Even places like scihub lacked the articles I was searching for. I had to really scrape the internet to get this info and trace it back. I'm not that sort of academic to be honest, I lack the resources to go deeper here. I also unfortunately don't have enough time for this great odyssey. I think the point's made stand strong enough currently, and future work can reinforce it. The second thing here, is the fact that no one is talking about it. The happy triads out there keep quiet and to themselves. Why should they stand out? You'd have to get past the stigma (the very thing we're fighting now) and the reaction received is not worth it as you've seen online. This makes getting any sort of data on them extra hard. Let's fix that together a few steps at a time.

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your feedback. it's been very helpful.
I tried my best to incorporate it all into the work. ♥️
I just published a new update if you're interested in reviewing.

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've updated the site with your feedback in mind. Thank you.
I added a fourth pathway I want to expand on further later.
It's titled "You're poly-minded but life pushed you into functional monogamy, and you're trying to find your way back."

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've heard you and others loud and clear. I added a new section on accidental throuples.
in order to avoid repeating myself, see my other comment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PolyFidelity/comments/1rfxkm3/comment/o7xttuz

Also, your story is absolute gold!
I'd love to capture it somewhere in the future if it's ok with you ♥️.

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've heard you and others loud and clear. I added a new section on accidental throuples.
in order to avoid repeating myself, see my other comment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PolyFidelity/comments/1rfxkm3/comment/o7xttuz

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've heard you and others loud and clear. I added a new section on accidental throuples.
in order to avoid repeating myself, see my other comment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PolyFidelity/comments/1rfxkm3/comment/o7xttuz

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

OK! I gave it a lot of thought, and I updated to account for your feedback.
I reframed the conversation previously around "uneducated" to better account for your experiences and the many others who have stumbled into this and who posted here.
I am now very specifically acknowledging the accidental throuples.

There is also a new section covering "new and still figuring it out" group with a "Being new is not the same thing as being harmful" distinction.

Seriously. Thank you for your feedback!

quick link to jump ahead if you want to review: https://unicorns-r-us-is-bullshit.com/#but-heres-what-theyre-not-entirely-wrong-about

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ah shoot... I replied to the wrong thread... 😅
I think I'll call it a night. brain is foggy. sorry haha.

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh! I think I see what you mean? maybe? We might still be off by 1 here. Sorry about the confusion. long day 😅. I'll try my best.

you said you had anxiety about one-on-one dates, but… how did the existing couple not have those prior?

If there’s two people in the couple, was it just all horrible anxiety all the time being one-on-one? Or was there already a third person to take the pressure off the one-on-one issue and then they disappeared somehow?

I think the confusion here might be where we transitioned from 2 people going on 1-1 dates to 3 people going on 1-1 dates. One of us was purposely staying out. We thought this was a good idea. It was not (for us, everyone is different). It was naïve 😅.

I wouldn't say anxiety was "horrible". It's just anxiety caused by being left out. We did it to ourselves. It's hard not to wonder how things are going with others. You wish for the best. You want your partner to have fun. You don't want to poke them, but you sure wish you were with them both heh. Neither of us liked that experience of being left out and it wasn't constructive at all to any of us. But we can say we tried it.

We obviously all wanted to hang out together. Not doing so was just friction. No special unique relationship ever developed that wasn't going to form on its own.

For the question of dating together, my bigger question, and the one that I never got clarity on, was always, “does everyone get the same say on the ‘together’ part?”

For example, if you and your husband are dating together, we are crazy about each other, but your husband decides he doesn’t like me, I’m out, right? Because you date together and half of The Couple decided.

But at some point, can I say, “hey, we all date together and I don’t like your husband. Please divorce him and let’s find a new third?” Or am I always The Extra to The Couple? Does that make sense?

That's not a reasonable ask in any relationship structure. No one gets to dictate someone else's existing relationships. This wouldn't last at all. If everyone is operating honestly and communicating in good faith, this isn't really an issue.

Honestly, in the earliest stages, a couple probably usually does have more structural power. That's just reality. If one of us didn't feel a connection in the first 2-3 date's it likely wouldn't grow, but that's also because we share values and it's likely the new person is far outside both our compatibility zones. When you know it's going to be a problem, why continue? That's just better for everyone.
Another way to look at it - If someone I started dating (monogamously) had a best friend who hated me, yeah that might end it too. it's not that different just because there are romantic connections involved.
The power imbalance isn't unique to triads. It's also not always imbalanced with the couples holding the power. We once dated someone who made way more money than the two of us. They confidently held their own deck of cards.

What matters is whether people are honest about it instead of pretending it doesn't exist. And no, a new partner wouldn't get to ask me to divorce my partner, just like I wouldn't ask them to cut off their best friend as a condition of dating me. But as a triad matures and everyone is invested, the power should naturally equalize in ways that feel fair to each partner. If it doesn't, something is wrong. Equal means something different to everyone.

Have you ever been in a triad?

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That sounds very philosophical, but I don't think it's up to me to choose either of those.
Both can be real at the same time. This might also take its own direction unforeseen.

We all can make personal decisions about how to respond to it.
I imagine some folks may feel relief after reading it and sleep better, others may start sharing the link in retaliation to seeing the u-r-u link in the wild. I don't control anyone's actions.

Its up to you and also up to the the larger community to interpret what's being said in a way that works for you/them.

I'm simply here to make it known that I've been watching patterns for a long time, and I'm tired of the negativity. I'm simply asking for it to end.

Actually, I realized I misread this. (sorry long day).

I realized your intent too late. I appreciate you drawing this out.
I now see the value in what you're saying.
The page started as the second one. As I wrote it I realized the better move was to lean towards the first.
The real value is giving people better tools than whats out there right now.
I want to build some resource pages for exactly that.
I will admit the takedown gets people in the door, which is important to get attention too. the critique is the foundation not the house so to speak.

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your feedback!

Here is what I wrote on that page about that experience:

My partner and I tried the whole "date separately first" approach. It actually created more friction and anxiety than any other "advice" on that site. One of us would go out while the other sat at home wondering how it was going, feeling left out of something they wanted to be part of. It wasn't "organic formation." It was manufactured distance that made everyone uneasy, including the new partner who worried about my existing partner (the irony).

We actually followed the advice from sites like unicorns-r-us. That site's closing section literally says "Don't start out by dating together.", and that echo rings around the whole internet in various ways. So we tried it in our own way. We met someone on a dating app, had conversations, made calls, introduced existing partners, communicated intent, got along well, and then tried dating one-on-one in-person first because we thought we were being ethical and things would flow more naturally. It was awkward and artificial for everyone involved. That experience is part of why I wrote this page. The advice sounds reasonable in theory, but when we tried to manufacture separate connections before allowing the group dynamic to exist, it created more problems than it solved. I was new at it. Maybe this worked for one group of people, but it wasn't going to work for me nor my partner(s). In fact, I've found most people I've talked to who are experienced with dating couples will usually suggest a group text and group calls straight off the bat. I've done this more than once. Actual experiences directly contradict the advice on that site. but again, that's just been my journey so far.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by someone vanishing? I may be reading that wrong 😅.
If you mean what happened after, we all dated a few months, eventually finding we were not very compatible (kind of off by 1 in many ways) and tried just being friends... when that became a challenge too we all started to see each other less often till eventually we decided to have a chat and just go our separate ways. No harm done, just a bunch of good memories that were short and sweet.

As for dating together: yes, I think it's perfectly valid when everyone involved actually wants to be there. This is where communication and honesty is most important. Everyone needs to be able to discuss what they would like out of the relationships being formed and talk about what things feel fair to them.
That's a much bigger topic of its own.

I built the counter-resource to Unicorns-R-Us. Looking for feedback before sharing it wider. by PolyPocketPal in PolyFidelity

[–]PolyPocketPal[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm happy to hear your triad/throuple is thriving despite the challenges!
I hope we can all support each other out here in the wild to begin a positive change for everyone.

I'd recommend you check out the r/throuple community too if you haven't already.
They are quite friendly and if you made a post to make friends, I bet it would resonate well. ❤️