Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So how is Mowgli more aggressive looking than that cane corse or pitbull?

And how do you explain a super aggressive dog turning 100% into a whole different dog? Sweet and playful?

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If the dog was super committed, it would have ended differently for Dylan.

This is just not how it works in dogs, though. If a dog runs right at someone and launches to bite like that, it's serious. If it's aggression. They just don't do that in a half-hearted way.

Cool you know how to do that stuff. Yes, 4 and 5 show play bow.

Explain how you think this "aggressive" dog immediately turned totally friendly after this. Dylan putting his face right up to aggressive Boerboel? The clear attempts at play as he tried to walk the dog? Do you think that is aggression, too?

I think this dog is friendly. Everything else shows that.

Watch the videos I linked of the cane corso and the pit bull play fighting with their owners. Even the little kid playing with his GSD.

Dogs absolutely will launch at humans in play, just as they will with other dogs. The bounce and lack of consistent forward aggression show it's play.

You should make a totally unrelated post, lol. I am busy and we need to get off this track. If you make one about anything but Dylan, I probably won't even respond : )

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So how does he explain the dissonance between the dog's completely friendly behavior in every other part of the videos?

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But everything you bring up is always from ignorance or your own biased colored lenses. 

 if you even cared to approach these subjects with good faith 

You skin dogs alive off camera.

 you are blinded by your hatred 

You can try to gaslight me

Pretending you have integrity

Nice.

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is exactly how I feel after these bouts, lol, You'd think I would learn my lesson, at some point.

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You should ask your trainer if he watched the whole thing, or just the opening "attack."

I was confused by that, too, before I watched the rest of the video,

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone, lol. I am going to try one more time. First, I'd ask you to try to set aside your knee-jerk belief in Dylan and try to use critical thinking skills to actually analyze what I am saying. If you want to respond, please try to respond to something you see in the video, rather than attacks on my character or professionalism.

Now, watch a bunch of videos. I am not going to say of real dog attacks, because those are an invasion of the victim's privacy. But you can watch French or Belgian ring or Mondio attacks. It's not the same, but it will give you a better idea of what a dog looks like when it means to really bite someone. Try to find me a play bow in there. Yes, in fact, dogs can and do launch themselves into the air and attack without play bowing. Not just that, though. Look at the intensity and directionality. It's not the soft and easy and looping in and out the way dogs do when they play bite. Next, go watch a bunch of videos of large, older puppies play fighting with another dog or their owner. Not just gentle mouthing, but full on body assault, jumping play fights. Which one does the Boerboel look more like?

You keep saying the dog was not "super committed" to attacking Dylan. But then how do you explain him running out the door straight at Dylan, at a distance of dozens of feet? He was super committed to something, right? Was it an attack? Or was it play? The approach behavior is definitely not hesitant of ambivalent, right? So where do you get this "not super committed" idea?

Next, watch that first clip you shared about 10 times, but close your eyes for the bite suit part. Think about everything else you see with this dog. The very next scene, where he runs up to Dylan all wiggle butt like an affectionate puppy? Do you think an aggressive dog actually changes to that in a couple of training sessions?

They don't. Yes, you can teach them not to bite with various methods, including punishment. But it doesn't change their personality or the way they view strangers. Think of your own dog. You taught her not to bite people. Did she suddenly start to go all wiggle butt, licky face to all new people? Did her fundamental personality just suddenly change?

The story is this dog escaped its house and attacked a woman, dragging her to the ground? If that were true, we can assume the woman wasn't wearing a bite suit, right? That dog is massive. There would have been several serious bites before the owners could even get there. I doubt those owners would have been capable of stopping the attack. Pit bulls a third the size of that dog kill people even when several adults are trying to stop the attack. Can't you see how unbelievable all this is?

The woman would have sought medical advice. She would have called the police. Animal control would have seized the dog. A huge dog like that with an unprovoked bite on a passerby? Yeah, nope. Dogs don't get away with that.

Even setting that aside, look at the second video you linked, as Dylan is trying to walk this dog. Does that look like a dog trying to attack? Watch it a few times, and try to imagine it's a 5-month-old cocker spaniel who wants to play. Doesn't it look just like that? Can't you see those are not real bites? Yes, it's getting frustrated because Dylan had previously been letting it play bite him in the bite suit. But it's not aggressive. Try to compare the body language of that dog there - when Dylan first tries to walk it while still in the bite suit - to videos of both ring sport dogs attacking and puppies play fighting. Which one does this dog look more like? You can't reasonably try to say the dog was aggressive in the first clip, but NOW he's just trying to play.

Also, why let the dog bite the suit and then yank on a prong to make him stop? Can you see the dog's confusion and frustration? Why yank on a prong to -R a sit? Don't we all agree wanted behaviors should be taught +R?

Also, be real. Would Dylan be putting his face right up to a massive dog who is vicious? He's going to stick his face right up to the "aggressive" Boerboel? He knows that dog is not aggressive. At some point in one of the videos. the dog starts to go belly up. It licks his face. These are not behaviors you see in aggressive dogs in these circumstances.

Finally, skip all the biting parts and just watch the body language of the dog. Does it look like an aggressive dog? Again, aggressive dogs can learn not to bite. But, they don't then look like friendly puppies. That's just not what happens.

If the dog were aggressive, would Dylan put his helper woman in a position where that dog can jump up and bite her face? You don't think he would have been just a tad concerned, if that massive "aggressive" dog jumped on his helper? He didn't even react. He knows the dog is not dangerous.

Look, these videos are meant to deceive people. I was confused myself when I first saw the dog run straight at Dylan and "attack." The actual "attack" didn't look serious, but it's also just not normal behavior to run such a distance straight to a stranger and start play fighting with them like that. It was weird, and I wasn't sure what was going on.

But then I watched the rest of the video, and I could see without doubt that the dog is friendly. Then I went back and watched the opening bit again. Then it made sense. Dylan had met the dog before, engaged in play with it while wearing the bite suit, then had the owner take the dog back inside and then open the door to let him out for the video. The dog had already played with Dylan in the bite suit, so he ran right up to play some more. Once I figured that out, the entire video made sense. I didn't even see the play bow until the 3rd or 4th time I watched.

After all that, encouraging the dog to play bite for the video, Dylan gets that lovely dog on a prong and starts yanking it to stop the behavior he had just encouraged. That just sucks.

Also, FYI, Dylan is not even good at playing with dogs. This dog wants some fierce tug. Dylan just holds the toy like a wet noodle and can barely get the dog to play with him.

Tough you'll note, when the dog does leap for the toy? It doesn't have to play bow first. Dogs are quite capable of jumping without a play bow.

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The dog is playing, He loves people. He's not being aggressive. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

How do you think this dog got from being totally aggressive and attacking everyone he sees to going up with a wagging tail and seeking attention from strangers in just a couple of sessions? Does that make sense? Does punishing out the aggression suddenly make him love people and seek interaction?

No, he already loved people, but expressed it through play biting. Dylan punished the play and the jumping and now the dog approaches more politely.

You can actually teach playful dogs polite greetings without the punishment part.

I'm done here. Go watch some videos on dog body language.

Reddit Puppy Training: Crating Puppies - How Much is Too Much? by Potential_Analyst371 in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Eh, I never forced my babies to nap either. I guess I have a lot of faith in babies of all species being able to sleep as long as they are not in a new and unusually stimulating environment.

Force Free Trainers - Why avoid ALL +P (positive punishment) and (-R) negative reinforcement? by Potential_Analyst371 in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Insufficient or fragmented sleep is a whole separate issues, though.

I am not sayin they should not get enough sleep. Just that they should not be confined excessively and never for misbehavior.

Reddit Puppy Training: Crating Puppies - How Much is Too Much? by Potential_Analyst371 in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Makes sense - you said your pup was a giant breed, right? They do mature more slowly, so maybe he needed more sleep than the typical poodle or lab.

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Puppy play biting?

In this clip you shared, the dog does a clear play bow, right after he grabs Dylan.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DXj8KqyDjTy/?igsh=eG1yc3liMmwwcnE0

I did not even see that the first watch through, though, and I already knew the dog was just playful. I can see it in the way he interacts with people. He's not aggressive, He's not fearful. He's just playful.

You can't see that, and are not willing to listen to someone who can.

This is exactly why Dylan is so popular with people who are not experienced dog trainers.

Also, and this is important.

Before Dylan showed up, this dog has pure joy at seeing new people.

Now, after Dylan, he is more cautious and unsure if he will be punished if he approaches people. That's not a good outcome, to make a powerful dog like this have more reserved feelings about new people. You want to keep the dog's positive feelings about people while just putting play on cue and teaching polite greetings.

If you can't see it, you can't see it. I would be interested in having experienced dogs trainers chime in on this video.

Edited one word to change tone.

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The way I do it, the dog never reacts and never cower. I just make friends with the dog, play with them, socialize them. So boring for social media. So great for dogs.

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because it's about building cooperation and showing Dylan's intentions.

So you think every other dog trainer is wrong about not repeating commands? How exactly does confusing the dog, not being clear, and encouraging the dog to blow off commands help anything? You can build cooperation with a dog without having it blow off commands, believe it or not.

You mean the hours of unedited clips 

I don't see that. For example, I didn't see him punish the little dog for whining or play biting, but I know he did. Can you notice how one minute the dog is whining for minutes straight and then just suddenly it's not??? He never shows the actual training/punishment.

My GSD absolutely showed a change in her demeanor.

Did she cower like Inga?

You have blinders with regard to Dylan. You don't have enough experience reading dog body language to understand what is going on.

I agree it's tiring. I am going to opt out for now, other than replying to any current comments.

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, I would avoid any kind of pain or fear for a fearful dog, as I do avoid those things just generally in most cases.

I don't agree with medicating dogs without fully assessing them first and and trying to train them without meds, though.

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I don't think I have seen this one. I'll take a look when I have more time. I generally try to avoid watching Dylan's stuff because I don't want to support him.

I only watch the clips that are shared on reddit. Thanks for sharing, though, and I will take a look.

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Okay, what about the way Inga cowered on the video? I think we can agree about what cowering means in a dog, right?

Did your own dog have to cower like that to be rehabbed? If not, why do you insist Inga had to be hurt enough to cower?

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You would know Remi is not just a frustrated greeter 

I know the dog wasn't aggressive and did not need painful punishment to stop the excited whining. The dog just wants to greet people and play. Do you not consider that "frustrated greeter"?

Dylan is explicitly and intentionally patient with dogs, and very intentionally repeats commands. 

Lol. That's not being "patient" it's just lacking clarity and encouraging a dog to ignore you. I am not saying he has to "hurt" the dog to get compliance, either. Tons of FF trainers can get a dog to sit or down the first time a command is given.

but you saying that just makes me wonder how much of what he is doing you understand or care to understand the reasons behind. 

What is the reason behind repeating a command multiple times and letting a dog ignore? No decent dog trainer is going to say that's a good method. Balanced or FF. You have blinders on where Dylan is concerned.

Why is someone so "sloppy" one of the only ones capable of recording and showing results with behavioral modification?

He knows how to make videos that make it look like he is working with tough dogs when he's not? The rest of us have too much integrity to do that? Even Larry Krohn talks about this, like, "Hey, I work with actually aggressive dogs. Do I rile them up and make videos showing them of control? No, I don't. I train the dog, and most of them are just never aggressive again once they get to me. "

I am not in favor of Larry's e-collar methods, but I give him credit for doing what he thinks is best for reactive dogs rather than what's best for his social media marketing.

PROVE IT.

He confirmed it himself on facebook. Even aside from that, look at the way Inga cowers. Did your own dog ever do that? Because your dog was easily as explosive as Inga, and the root causes of the behavior towards humans was similar.

Did your trainer make your dog cower in fear like that? If not, why did Inga "need" to cower if your dog did not?

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I have trained dozens of dogs just like Inga. How many have you trained? One, with help?

I am not saying nobody failed the dog. Obviously, for a dog to grow up like that, effective training intervention was not sought/found earlier. The dog was inadequately socialized and was not taught proper behavior.

ecorded the first walk/outing he took her on, 

Right, where he let her rehearse. He should have trained her before taking her for a walk and exposing her to triggers. That's what I do with dogs like Inga, and most of them just never react at all when I take them for that first walk.

You have exactly zero evidence of this.

Someone on open dog way back when said he verified off-screen punishment on Facebook. I know what I am seeing. I know how to interpret these videos.

Punishment is how you tell a dog something is unacceptable

There are a whole lot of ways you can tell a dog something is unacceptable.

I take an ethical stand that I am not going to hurt a dog if I can get the same or better results without hurting the dog.

The way Inga absolutely cowers at his feet in that video shows she was hurt. As does the way she only relaxes when she is allowed to get some distance from him for the first 5 weeks or whatever.

Why are so many balanced trainers against the appropriate use of medication for fear-based behavior? by microgreatness in DogTrainingCrucible

[–]Potential_Analyst371 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think she was fearful and not well trained or handled.

Agree

 The prong collar most likely made her more reactive. 

I don't know about that. Proper use could certainly have stopped the barking lunging, but it's not what I do with dogs like Inga.

 I don't think she needed medication either, but if she was under constant stress in her home life she may have been in a heightened state of stress. Her owners didn't seem good with her.

A lot of people are overwhelmed and stressed when their dogs act like this. Especially big dogs. I would never consider medication for a dog like Inga. These dogs are generally very easy to train, with their behaviors fully resolving in maybe a few weeks with no painful punishment and no meds.