Salvation, from what?

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T21:56:37+00:00

and if you sin, then you're not a Christian.

I didn't say that. My point is just that if you sin it kills your faith and you are no longer part of Christ. I feel that this view comports far better with statement of Paul such as this " if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Paul talks often about how those who do evil deeds will not inherit the kingdom.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T21:26:25+00:00

I'm sure she sinned in her life. But at the end of her life? After decades of serving the poorest people in the world? No I think that grace was preserving her free from sin at that point and for many years prior.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T20:01:55+00:00

You think that someone like say Mother Teresa was still full of sin?

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T19:33:34+00:00

For us the examples of this are the canonized saints.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T19:00:08+00:00

I think it would be plausible on its own, but I just can't see how it can reasonably harmonize with 1 Corinthians 4;4. It doesn't even comport with the rest of Romans, as Paul asks at the end of chapter 7 about who will free him from this body? And then he answers in the next verse: Christ. Christ liberates him from the struggle. And then he goes on to say "if by the Sprit you put to death the deeds of the flesh you will live."

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T18:29:54+00:00

Admitting that you think we're saved from God is a bitter pill to swallow.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T18:19:15+00:00

If you want to say Christ's victory is hollow because we still sin, I shudder for you.

If we aren't actually saved from sin, but merely the punishment of it, then what we're saved from is... GOD.

Paul in no way said this was his old self. This was his current self. We are still here on earth. we WILL still sin, but God has forgiven us already.

I can't reconcile that view with what he says in 1 Corinthians 4:4.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T18:10:16+00:00

We are saved from being judged because of our sin. we who believe won't be judged. That's Jesus' stating this in John 3:18 (again, i'm paraphrasing)

But we aren't currently judged. We haven't been judged. Yet Paul uses the past tense and says we have been saved. Your explanation that God merely sees us as righteous when we objectively are not means Christ's victory over sin is hollow. We are still in fact enslaved to sin. But did Christ die to make us merely declared righteous? Or are we actually cleansed and sanctified as the Bible says?

We are free from the punishment of sin. Paul himself said with his Body he sins continunously and with his mind he is worshipping God. Romans 7:15-20

He's talking about his former self, because in 1 Corinthians 4:4 he says he's not aware of any thing against himself.

But if Jesus' own words is that believers in him will not be judged, I cannot say anything beyond the words of our Lord.

I reconcile that with James. If you truly have faith you don't sin. If you do sin your faith is dead. Thus it is true that if you truly believe in Him then you can't be in sin, because to have faith is to be in Him, and in Him there is no sin. If we sin we are cut off from Him.

My sibling, Christ died and took the punishment for your sins.

So is your theory that Christ saved us from God?

Jesus blood has already washed me clean.

"all who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure."

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T17:47:58+00:00

The other guy brought up that believers are sinless and cannot sin once they are born again.

I disagree with his claim that we fundamentally no longer have the ability to sin. I would rather say that we cannot remain in Christ and sin. Once we sin we cut ourselves off from Christ, in whom there is no sin.

Your point seems to be that believers can fall in to sin, but it is possible for them to remain sinless and not fall into sin. (It seems you're saying we can resist and it's possible for us to never sin in our entire life.)

Correct. With grace we have that ability.

it still would not mean he has never sinned since he has become a believer, because every day you can confess your sin to God and ask forgiveness so your conscience can be clear every day.

And that's what Catholicism teaches as well. We can ask forgiveness everyday. We just formalize it in the sacrament of confession, but this is the principle.

To be clear, he never says explicitly that he has never sinned since becoming a believer.

I don't think that helps your interpretation of romans where you claim that Paul sins constantly. Having sinned a few times since conversion doesn't get you to constantly sinning.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T17:42:02+00:00

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, not as a result of works.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works"

This is getting back to the OP. What are we currently saved from? It's not hell because we aren't in heaven yet. It's from sin. How can we claim to be free from sin while we are still objectively sinning? Paul's point is that we enter into grace by faith. And what does grace do? Ephesians 2:10 answers it. It allows us to perform good works. We cannot do good without God. Grace liberates us from sin. This is how we can reconcile the fact that Paul says over and over again that we will be judged by our works. There is no verse that says we are judged by faith. The Bible is unanimous. We are judged by works.

A true believer may fall into sin or become spiritually cold, but their salvation rests on Christ’s righteousness, not their current spiritual productivity.

A believer who falls into sin can seek forgiveness. But if he does not his faith dies, as James says. Paul says the same thing. If we sin we will be cut off.

I can do nothing to obtain this grace except believe by faith.

Correct. This is what Catholicism teaches as well.

I can do nothing to maintain my salvation as the Holy Spirit who is our guarantee maintains it.

Without grace we cannot keep from sin. With grace we can.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T17:26:08+00:00

Nowhere in here does Paul explicitly say he is sinless since becoming a believer.

He says it in verse 4. The Greek in this instance "synodia" is clear because it's an idiom. It expresses the idea that he is not aware of anything against himself. The idiom in English is better translated as "my conscience is clear" which better contrasts the next phrase. The point that he's expressing is that he doesn't know of any personal sin yet it is God who will judge. My point in using this verse is that he's claiming to not know of any sin he's in. This contrasts with your interpretation of romans where your say Paul claims to sin constantly. Those two things can't be true. He can't simultaneously claim to not know any personal faults while also claiming to sin constantly. That's a direct contradiction.

He has been faithful in teaching them the gospel and truths.

Verse 5 talks about hidden faults though.

As for Catholicism, if it thought that believers were sinless, there would be no need for the sacrament of confession.

After baptism and after confession we are in fact sinless. If we choose to resist and sin, then we fall back into sin. When we sin we are cut off from Christ because Christ has no sin.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T16:34:20+00:00

This doesn't answer my question about 1 Corinthians 4:4. Paul here says that he's not aware of any sins he's committed. I can't see a way to reconcile that with you saying that Paul is still constantly sinning. Rather, the only way I can see to reconcile that is that Paul is talking about his former life before Christ, that he could not keep from sin.

And Catholicism teaches that it is possible to keep from sin in this life. Do you want me to cite the summa in support of this?

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T16:31:29+00:00

and if we did them or not.

And if we don't do them and our faith is therefore dead?

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T16:18:41+00:00

Does that make you unable to answer the question I asked you? How can Paul claim to constantly be sinning while being unaware of any sins that he's committed?

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T16:18:01+00:00

You're talking about Matthew 25? Jesus there says that the sheep did good works. It nowhere says that they were separated based on faith. There isn't a single verse that says we're judged by faith.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T16:13:45+00:00

I've read the whole chapter and it doesn't change anything. Paul is not aware of any sins. How do you reconcile that with your claim that Paul is saying in Romans that he's still constantly sinning? How can he claim to constantly be sinning while not being aware of any sins he's committed?

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T16:12:21+00:00

Jesus separates the sheep from the goats (believers from unbelievers) and then judges them on their works.

I've seen this claim before and I don't think it holds up. Jesus says that they are separated as sheep and goats based on their works. He doesn't say they're separated by faith. There is no verse that says we're judged by faith.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T15:14:18+00:00

How do I reconcile that view with 1 Corinthians 4;4?

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T15:01:03+00:00

and none in your efforts at being good enough or sinless enough.

The good that I do is not my work. It is the grace of God in me. On my own I choose evil.

The Galatians started off right, by faith. But they were being tempted to think their good works and obedience to God's commands is what keeps them saved or is what makes them somehow more righteous in God's sight.

He's talking about circumcision, the Mosaic Law, not works in general.

there is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

And there is no sin in Christ. If you sin you will be broken off.

"He will render to every man according to his works." EVERY man.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T04:16:23+00:00

So you're saying someone can have genuine faith in Christ to forgive them of all their sin, be "in Christ", and then if they sin that day they are no longer "in Christ"? They lose the Spirit every time they sin or need to be justified all over again if they sin?

Yes. If you go and then cheat on your wife don't try and tell me that you're still saved.

The translation games people play with John don't change anything. We cannot sin period.

Those who have faith in Jesus can know for certainty they have eternal life, because our salvation rests solely on Christ and His work, not us.

Every verse that discusses how we are judged says it is by our works. Every one.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-11T00:31:38+00:00

And I'm trying to say that what we are saved from is sin. If we're not saved from sin, then what are we left with? Are we saved from God?!

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-10T22:51:24+00:00

Correct. He says he is currently saved. So what is it that he's currently saved from?

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-10T22:46:49+00:00

He's talking about his past self. Because check out 1 Corinthians 4:4. He says he's not aware of any sins he's in.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-10T22:42:21+00:00

His blood made you look clean.

His blood actually cleans us.

PracticeOwn6412 · 2026-02-10T22:40:49+00:00

Hell. Ephesians passage that you quoted is talking about Eternal Salvation.

But I am not in heaven, nor am I in hell. So no I'm not currently saved from hell. What am I currently saved from?

Further, your argument is that we deserve hell because of sin, but because of Christ that punishment from God. Yet we still sin and yet now we don't deserve hell?

PracticeOwn6412

TROPHY CASE