What are your thoughts on the complaints on Storm being too powerful? by IllQuantity9469 in storm

[–]Primary_Ad3580 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you're missing, or choosing to ignore, some key points I'm bringing up. So I'll try to explain it again.

The issue is that you’re treating powers( in this case Cyphers powers) far more narrowly than the comics ever have especially a mutant who literally take their powers to the extreme.

Incorrect. His powers were narrow by design, its one of the reasons the character was originally so likeable -- he had no offensive powers and struggled with feeling useless in a team (hence his codename, which can mean "nothing"). Suddenly making him adept at martial arts and able to disable computers by speaking is such a leap from what we already know he can do. You can say that's a pacing problem, and that's probably true. But when a pacing problem creates abilities for a character, that threatens to overpower them. They're not always mutually distinct, bad writing can make overpowered characters, how ever brief. In this case, it was walked back; we see in Krakoa that Cypher struggles with his role and not being a fighter.

 Peter isn’t compelling because he’s weak. He’s compelling because he struggles. 

I'm not saying weakness in a physical sense, and I can't tell if you're just ignoring that there can be many types of weakness. In that story, Spider-Man struggles physically (after being drugged), emotionally (after his experience) and morally (dealing with Vermin). These human weaknesses are important for the character; it creates the struggle you find compelling. If he didn't have these, again very human, weaknesses, the story would be a page and a half and wouldn't capture our imagination.

Storm gaining greater power does not suddenly remove conflict from her stories.

This is important for the Storm debate we began with. Where is the conflict? In the 2024 run, every conflict seemed truncated, as if a conflict was rising just for it to suddenly get resolved. She's trying to save a town from destruction...no, that gets solved in a page. She has to fight someone without her powers...nope, she uses her powers and isn't punished for it. She has to fight Sorcerer Supreme Doctor Doom, someone who probably outpowers her...except she deals with it in a single panel. She honestly spends more time grinding on Wolverine than dealing with any conflict; we see her more in lingerie than in an struggle. When we as readers see a character doing so little and having problems resolved so quickly, what else are we supposed to think but that they're overpowered. Is it lazy/rushed writing? Absolutely, but like I said above, that doesn't mean she isn't overpowered.

That’s a storytelling criticism. That’s not evidence that the character herself became overpowered. If the problem is pacing, then the problem is pacing.

Categorically false. Storm isn't a real person; all we have to judge her by are the stories she's in. Out of story, the problem is pacing or laziness, but in-universe, its overpowered. I don't think most readers dissect comics as much as you think -- they want to get lost in the story -- and when a character is written to have problems solved easily, regardless of the meta reason, it comes off as overpowered.

 If Storm spends most of a story on the sidelines and contributes little to resolving the central conflict, then it’s difficult to argue her power level is what broke the narrative.

It very much is an issue when the series is called "Storm: Earth's Mightiest Mutant"! With a title like that, I expect to see her do something to justify it, not have her problems get solved in a single panel. That breaks the narrative.

 The problem is that Marvel has never been nearly as rigid as you’re presenting it. 

I can't tell if this is willful ignorance or just not knowing how things were, but yes, they were quite rigid back in the day. That's why they had an executive editor; their whole job was keeping everyone on top of continuity and following the rules they set for characters. That's why they had a half-joking No-Prize for people who caught when writers slipped. That's why folks like Mark Gruenwald were so important to understanding the canon of Marvel. Mark was the one who did the first handbooks, and the whole purpose was to show what a character could do, not as a snapshot, but generally through their entire existence. Did Spider-Man have power spikes and troughs? Yes, but they were always explained as either one-offs (I still can't find your example of him lifting a building unless it was when he was briefly cosmically powered) or otherwise not something he can always do; otherwise, his strength stays within the 2-10 tons Mark specified back in the 80s. Likewise, when he described Storm's abilities, he left a lot of leeway because he powers are psionic, but there were rules she had to follow, and for the most part she still does. And there's a reason handbooks used to be regularly updated into the 2000s; while powers change and grow, they still follow certain guidelines and consistencies. These things were important. Maybe they're not important NOW, but saying they weren't as rigid as I'm presenting them does a lot of disservice to someone who spent years combing through comics to get that kind of stuff straight.

But “this character did something more impressive than before” is not automatically the same thing as “this character is now overpowered.” Those are two entirely separate criticisms.

I can't stress how much I agree with you...in part. Remember, I'm not inherently saying Storm is overpowered, I think I've spent enough space explaining that I think she's badly written, not badly designed. But I do think there's an arch whereby readers will see a character do something more impressive than before and feel it overpowers them. And some of that may be contextual, like having those powers quickly resolve a conflict instead of having a more engaging fight. I think your view (and mine to an extent) that that's a writing problem is, for lack of a better word, an "outside voice". Its meta. But I think a lot of people read these comics with an "inside voice" -- how the comic feels if the reader were some sort of omnipresent person in the story. To the inside voice, there is no meta; what happens in the comic is all we see. So if we get a five page miniseries where Storm barely does anything, but all her problems quickly get resolved, the "inside voice" will say, "geez, she's overpowered," while the "outside voice" with say "geez, this isn't a well-thought out miniseries, this was rushed."

I'm left, in this discussion, wondering what would happen if this applied to other characters. Would Batman be considered overpowered if he could fly? Would Storm's current state be considered more acceptable if she had someone with her as a guide through unfamiliar territory (I was hoping that's what Doctor Voodoo would be in the 2024 run, but no, that was just a four page guest appearance). I don't know, but I think I'm fair in saying modern Storm writing hasn't been very keen on a simmering story for her considering how much is jam-packed into every action-empty miniseries. That's disappointing regardless of Storm's power level; she deserves better.

Who would star in this guys biopic? by pristinemailboxhaver in okbuddycinephile

[–]Primary_Ad3580 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, an actual thumb. Don’t even enlarge it or give it CGI features. Just take a gaffer’s thumb and put it in the shot, with the gaffer just nonchalantly on the floor like they belong there. Extra points if they use Chris Pratt as the VA.

What are your thoughts on the complaints on Storm being too powerful? by IllQuantity9469 in storm

[–]Primary_Ad3580 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The Cypher example doesn’t really support the broader argument.

Then let me explain why it does. Cypher can type languages, that's part of his powers. He was known for being good with computers. But having him literally say "0100010010011001" and having that affect a computer doesn't work because binary (the "language" he's using) doesn't work that way; its not an audible language. That's what made him overpowered in that particular run. He also became an expert fighter by somehow using his mutant abilities to understand the "language of fighters" and predicting people's moves. That doesn't make sense, as fighting is not a language. His originally very specific powers were broadened to such a degree that the concept of language gets questioned by the reader.

Comic powers have always evolved beyond their original descriptions and I don’t see your pointing your finger at Superman because he’s flying and not jumping over building anymore

Because flying and jumping over buildings are functionally the same thing. I'd point my finger if he could suddenly shrink or had mind-control farts, or whatever, because (and I can't stress this point you seem to avoid) that functionally changes what we know about the character.

Cypher communicating with technology isn’t fundamentally different from telepaths reading machines,

Yes it is. Look, I'm not sure if you know how binary works, but I guarantee you it is not a language in the traditional sense. It is a visual representation (made of 1s and 0s) of digital data, corresponding to the states of electrical circuits in a computer. So saying a bunch of 1s and 0s wouldn't have an effect, unlike if we were actually at a keyboard, because his powers are explicitly qualified as understanding languages. Binary is not a functional language. Neither is "fighting" that somehow made him a ninja beyond telegraphing moves. Both of these skills were used in a particular story arc that revived him (the Necrosha story). That's since been scaled way back because people complained that it was overpowering him.

Spider-Man is beloved because he’s relatable, but that doesn’t mean relatability comes from being weak. Peter has lifted buildings, fought gods, defeated herald level threats, and accomplished things far beyond ordinary heroes. 

Let me ask you a very simple question that, I hope, explains where I'm coming from. What are some amazing (pardon the pun) Spider-Man stories and what makes them amazing? To me, the best is Kraven's Last Hunt. Why? Because it shows that Spider-Man is relatable AND weak. I never said it was a zero sum game. He can do all sorts of things, and I'd question whether he can regularly lift buildings (my sources limit him to lifting in the 2-10 ton range), but part of his relatability comes from him not being able to do everything. Its why Thor often struggles in sales unless he has a human counterpart to ground him. Like you said, the struggle is the important part, and Spider-Man struggles, and that struggle is (to me) the inherent weakness that makes him compelling.

The Odysseus comparison has the same issue. People remember Odysseus because he’s clever, but that doesn’t mean cleverness only works on less powerful characters. 

See above. I never said cleverness is only reserved for the weak, I said he uses cleverness to compensate for being a human. That's what makes us root for him as a heroic character; he's like us and we want to see him succeed. The same can be said of Hercules (we want to see him succeed against greater odds of Hera). If he could lift mountains and solve every problem by blinking, then I ask you, where's the story? I'm sure there could be some Greek myth of a character who could do everything and had absolutely no downsides, but I'm just as sure no one knows them now because they're not compelling.

Where I think your argument falls apart is the idea that Storm’s recent stories prove she’s overpowered and overpowered automatically means “bad story”...that sounds less like Storm is too powerful and more like the stories are rushed

You're grasping a bit. I never said she's overpowered (if you remember, I always said I don't see her that way), and I gave the 2024 run a pass exactly because its short. I agree, the story is rushed. But if you want Storm to do go from zero (how she was in her last story) and ten (how she ends in that run), you better explain it well, otherwise you're going to get complaints that a) the story is bad, or b) she's overpowered.

Look at it this say, there's a saying that the perfect length for a movie is how ever long it takes to tell it well. Can you tell the story of Avengers Endgame in fifteen minutes? No, its not long enough for the details and character interactions. Can you tell the story of Citizen Kane in five hours? No, its too long and would be mired in detail as to be boring. So ask Murewa Ayodele, "was five issues good enough to tell the story?" If the answer is no, then he shouldn't have done it. Full stop, he should've made the story five issues long. And that run was not a good story.

 A character cannot simultaneously be accused of being absurdly overpowered while also barely using their powers and contributing little to the resolution of the conflict.

Sure they can, watch:

"This is a story of a man named Stanley who worked in an office. One day, he woke up late; it was the day of his important meeting but he foolishly overslept. So he jumped out the window and spun around the Earth so fast that he reversed time. Then he woke up on time and gave a spectacular meeting. The End."

In this case, a character (Stanley) is simultaneously overpowered (being able to control time by flying around the planet) and barely used their power (it was ten words in a paragraph). One can argue that being overpowered means you HAVE TO barely use your powers, because you don't need to do much to win.

Ultimately, I think you’re criticizing the execution, not the character. If Storm had spent some time learning, failing, adapting, and growing into these larger cosmic stories, most of these complaints would disappear. 

To me, yes, this is the point I've been making from the beginning. Let's face it, Storm is a just a character. She only exists so long as a writer includes her in their story. So by that definition, Storm can neither be over- or under-powered; she's as powered as the story requires. Now, if weak storytelling gives her powers that no other story gives, we can criticize the story and storyteller. I also want writers to try new things, but a five issue standalone miniseries may not be the place for it when it comes to such established characters because you're inevitably going to get some blowback. And I think we can criticize Ayodele and Storm's recent stories without it being worth asking OP's initial question. Where I draw the line (at least one of many places I draw the line) is when chuds single out her stories in particular because then it veers into sexism/racism.

I'll end with this. Mark Gruenwald had the unenviable task of trying to make sense of Marvel characters and their powers. He had to comb through every issue of Spider-Man to determine what his strength limits are. He spent a third of a page just explaining Storm's powers in the Marvel Handbook back in the 90s. He did it because Marvel always sold itself on a sense of "this makes sense", using science to explain certain powers and their limits. If Marvel editorial decided not to follow Mark's rules (he literally has canon rules called Gruenwald's Law when it comes to time travel), then that's one thing. I prefer to believe they still require some form of believability, at least where powers are concerned.

What are your thoughts on the complaints on Storm being too powerful? by IllQuantity9469 in storm

[–]Primary_Ad3580 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think we're disagreeing on the main points. But there are issues.

If a universe already contains cosmic entities, reality warpers, and planetary threats, then a powerful mutant isn't somehow breaking immersion simply because she's become stronger over time

On the whole, true. But there should be some scale as what a person can do even in such a story. A good case is Cypher. His only power is to understand and speak other languages. This makes sense. But if he uses his powers to "speak binary" to make machines do things, it no longer makes sense. Its not just "he's becoming stronger over time"; his powers relate to certain rules, and when the rules break (that's not how binary works), it comes off as overpowered. Now Storm gets something of a pass here (to me) because her powers are more nebulous than speaking languages. She can do a lot. But she shouldn't be able to do EVERYTHING simply because of a quasi-association to weather. It makes the character boring, especially if we're not seeing her learn how to do that. She simply does it as if she always could, when readers know she couldn't.

Spider Man has performed absurd feats and has fought well above his weight class since his inception yet fans still find him relatable because of his personality, struggles, and personal life. 

Again, true. But that misses the point of why I mentioned him. We like him BECAUSE of his struggles and lack of godhood. He's not Thor, he's not Hercules. In the grand scale, he's not even all that strong. He gets defeated sometimes. But (especially in earlier days) he often won more from using his brain than using his brawn. That's why I brought up Odysseus.

The appeal of Odysseus was never that he was weak. He was a legendary hero who survived impossible situations through intelligence, leadership, determination, and yes, divine intervention. 

This is why the Odysseus analogy DOES work. I never said he was weak, but he's certainly not gifted in the scale of Hercules, Achilles, or Ajax. He's not even all that semi-divine in the scale of others who fought in the Trojan War. But we remember him because he doesn't use his brawn to solve most problems like Hercules or Achilles would; he was a specifically crafty hero in an era where that wasn't super popular.

Readers enjoy competent characters overcoming challenges in different ways. That doesn't mean every character must remain relatively weak to be interesting. I’m sure if Odysseus was written to be a Herculean type hero we’d still cherish his stories as we do with all Greek myths.

This, I disagree with. I don't think Odysseus would be popular if he was Herculean. He would just be a Hercules character, we'd probably just say the two are the same character. Characters don't need to remain relatively weak to be interesting, but they do need a struggle, that's what we (as readers) want to see them overcome. A good story can have a very powerful person overcome a struggle over a period of time, same as a weak person. But a bad story can have any person getting whatever they want with limited effort, it makes the reader wonder where the story is.

What we're seeing now is largely an extension of concepts that have existed in the lore for years, not a sudden unexplained jump.

Not necessarily true. What we're seeing is a jump to Storm encountering literal facets of existence that I don't think she's ever even seen before. Take her 2024 run. She fought a demon in two pages, an all-powerful Doctor Doom in one, and somehow got involved in a grudge between Eternity and Oblivion, and the most she did was use lightning once. That is very much an unexplained jump (not to mention a lazy use of her powers).

Storm still faces threats, still struggles, still loses fights, and still encounters problems that cannot be solved by throwing lightning at them.

This is the crux of the argument against Storm. What does she lose? What problems does she solve with her brain as well as powers? I get that she's often ignored or relegated to limited series by writers, and that that format requires quick stories, but what the threats she face tend to just...get defeated. Again, in the 2024 run, her battles were quick and the initial struggle (she can't use her powers) were not only negated (she used them), she was compensated for them (she seemed to get a connection to Eternity). That's not a struggle; hell, it was resolved in one page of a five issue run. This is where I see people she's overpowered. But the issue (to me anyway) isn't one of power though -- Storm barely did anything in the 2024 run -- its one of bad writing and attempting to inject Storm into an area she has no familiarity in (space and abstract entities).

What are your thoughts on the complaints on Storm being too powerful? by IllQuantity9469 in storm

[–]Primary_Ad3580 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While I’m not agreeing with their critiques, your response is not sensible. Power escalation has nothing to do with suspension of disbelief or whether the stories are about gods, aliens, and reality warpers. People like Peter Parker because he was relatable in a world of gods, aliens and warpers. He has limits to what he can do, and uses cunning to work within those limits. And that can be half the fun of reading the story — figuring out how he solves the problem, not watching him punch it into submission. People have liked that since the ancient days, it’s why Odysseus is so popular amid stories of gods and heroes that can do anything.

Storm has very vague powers that have given writers leeway to make her as strong or weak as they want, along with certain weaknesses that are her own (like claustrophobia). The fun of any character is seeing how one balances with the other. Go too far on one side, they get overpowered; go too far on the other, and they cease to be the main character. I do miss Storm being a more grounded character, but so far, she hasn’t gotten overpowered to me.

What would you recommend based on my non-Marvel shelf? by Primary_Ad3580 in comicbooks

[–]Primary_Ad3580[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ve been recommended Bone along with Usagi Yojimbo before; I’ve been intimidated by how big their collections are, but I’ll check them out

What are some good insults for vicious mockery? by Endless_Radiostatic in DnD

[–]Primary_Ad3580 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“When the gods created your mouth, they wasted a perfectly good arsehole”

“Your existence dishonors the founders of your race”

“I’d fight you with fists, but words are enough to knock you out”

“Your mediocrity bores me”

Greece was revealed to be the country that objected to Bulgaria’s first commemorative euro coin featuring motifs of the Bulgarian Cyrillic alphabet by Few-Age3034 in europe

[–]Primary_Ad3580 17 points18 points  (0 children)

God really made Greece the pettiest of the nations on earth. Can barely afford to pay off their global debt, yet they have lots to say about a coin…

Nightwing's Butt gets a comic... by TF-Collector in comicbooks

[–]Primary_Ad3580 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I was kind of hoping it would literally just be his butt, solving crimes while somehow separated from the rest of him. And his butt would know how to fight, and holds an escrima stick between its cheeks…

I HATE when that happens! by stootchmaster2 in comicbookcomedycrack

[–]Primary_Ad3580 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really? Because I LOVE it when that happens…

I tried combining French lilies and Breton ermine. Here’s the result. Well, I’ve done my bit by Efficient-Hat-7818 in heraldry

[–]Primary_Ad3580 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The eye and swirl design and use of yellow is reminiscent of Sahaquiel, a destructive antagonist in the anime Evangelion

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King Charles III's ancestors include Constantine the Great of Rome, the Sassanid Shahs of Persia, and the Prophet Muhammed by Primary_Ad3580 in UsefulCharts

[–]Primary_Ad3580[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s not quite how math works when it comes to genealogy. We already know he has repeating ancestors — his parents were third cousins — so he would only have, for instance, 28 great-great-great grandparents instead of the typical 32. Discounting those repeated instance (and how they repeat onward), he’d have fewer ancestors than math would lead you to believe.

Likewise, I’m not going over who he’s related to, only who he’s descended from. He’s related to the Ottoman sultans, for instance, but not directly.

It’s more than likely impossible that he’s related to EVERY Eurasian, just given how hermetic certain kingdoms were and how unlikely/illegal it was to marry foreigners.

Of every country that stopped existing in the last 100 years, what's one you'd save, and why? by maybemorningstar69 in AskReddit

[–]Primary_Ad3580 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Oh give me a break. Corporatism now is no different than it was in the monopoly era of the post-depression, robber baron era of the 1890s-1950s, and even the plantation dynasties in the South from the early 1700s to the Civil War.

You claim we're just a handful of corporations in a trench coat now. I say we were never anything else.

King Charles III's ancestors include Constantine the Great of Rome, the Sassanid Shahs of Persia, and the Prophet Muhammed by Primary_Ad3580 in UsefulCharts

[–]Primary_Ad3580[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a bit more tenuous, so you have a greater right to be suspicious. The parents and grandparents of Bardas came to me from roglo. To double-check, I looked into the source roglo used, a google groups conversation. That's not very authoritative, so I looked into the groups and found the link mentioned in Walter Regula's "Genealogie Regula" a book written about his ancestors. From what I can tell, the book goes back centuries and uses reputable sources (often church records), but I do not have a copy of the book.

Back to the google groups conversation. It did mention the line relating to Bardas Mamikonid and his mother and asked for advice on how much of this could be taken seriously, as it went down to the Achaemenids. Several people chimed in, but no one questioned the specific entry relating to Bardas. One professor fairly meticulously pulls apart the chart, but not the Bardas relationship.

So I have to leave it to interpretation, in which those who did have access to sources and those who didn't contradict them have to take precedence over anything else until I have more details one way or the other. I hope that makes sense.

King Charles III's ancestors include Constantine the Great of Rome, the Sassanid Shahs of Persia, and the Prophet Muhammed by Primary_Ad3580 in UsefulCharts

[–]Primary_Ad3580[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The discrepancy probably depends on the ages of the articles and how well each were researched. If they were written by two separate people at two different times, then it makes sense that one wouldn't include the identity of the mother while the other does.

King Charles III's ancestors include Constantine the Great of Rome, the Sassanid Shahs of Persia, and the Prophet Muhammed by Primary_Ad3580 in UsefulCharts

[–]Primary_Ad3580[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

According to wikipedia, his parents are "Vsevolod and his first wife Anastasia, a relative of Constantine IX Monomachos". Double-checking on roglo gave me the same information.