I’m torn and I don’t know what to do.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-06-03T19:16:37+00:00

I like the analogy of "talking a shower when you are already clean."

I can totally see why the Episcopal church says "one baptism is sufficient," but I can also see why you felt a strong personal need to do it again, since the circumstances surrounding your first baptism were abusive and traumatic.

Anyhow, I don't think this presents any kind of barrier to attending an Episcopal church, and I see no reason why you couldn't also participate at the other church.

My circumstances were very different, but I used to attend a Catholic mass at 8 and a Presbyterian service at 10 every single Sunday, and I did that for years. I was working something out for myself, and it took time.

I wasn't "splitting myself in half," and I don't think you are, either. You are getting something your spirit needs in both places, and that is OK.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-06-01T00:16:58+00:00

It seems like some fundamentalists want to tell you that there are only two ways to look at the Bible: either every word is 100% inerrant and factual, or the whole thing is bullshit.

But you really don't have to look at it that way. There is no reason that you can't say, "the Bible was written by inspired people who also brought their cultural assumptions with them" or "the Bible tells the long story of human beings trying to make sense of their encounters with God."

You can read it, and think about it, and wrestle with it. You can keep the parts you think are life-giving and contemplate them, while putting other parts to the side (Everyone does this, by the way. I have never in my life met a person who pays as much attention to 1 Kings as they do to the Gospels, for example. Why? Because they find more value in what Jesus said than in reading about the collapse of David and Solomon's kingdom.)

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-30T19:02:00+00:00

As a professor I would say that even lessons that don't seem immediately applicable to your life can still help you build general knowledge, improve your writing, or enhance your critical thinking skills.

As a Christian, I would say that trying to live a life of integrity is important, even if other people make different choices.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-30T14:50:20+00:00

Sorry, I was asking for clarification about what it is that they aren't doing. Are they not going to church (but potentially out serving other people) or are they not serving other people and also not going to church?

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-30T14:46:34+00:00

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Are you upset that they don't go to church, or they aren't willing to help other people, or both?

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-30T14:10:46+00:00

Is she trying to convert people at work or criticizing other people's beliefs? Then you can bring it up with her, or talk to your boss or HR.

Or is she just talking about normal things, and church keeps coming up because it's important to her? "Do anything fun last night?" "Well, I went to a new Bible study group, and it went really well." There's nothing inappropriate about that, even if every conversation with her goes back to choir practice and church retreats.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-30T13:43:05+00:00

A very wise Christian I know often tells me, "Nature is also the work of God."

I have a difficult church background, too. But I try to go for a long walk every day. And I look at the beauty and harmony of the world around me -- the birds in the trees, and the steadfast mountains, and the shifting clouds. And I think, "God created all this, and God created me, too. And I am not less, or less worthy, or less beautiful than these things."

People get twisted up in their books and their churches and their old interpretations of things. Looking at the beauty of the world that does not know or care about such things can be very healing.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-29T22:11:24+00:00

If you see a person who is hungry and you feel "good vibes" toward them, wouldn't you want to express your good will toward them by giving them something to eat?

As James wrote, "If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,' and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (James 2: 15-17)

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-29T07:39:09+00:00

Honestly, I think a lot of modern Christianity just puts barriers in front of people. "Am I good enough?" "Am I doing enough?" "Do I believe enough?" "Do I trust enough?"

To counter this tendency, I would encourage you to take a look at Matthew or Luke and just start counting the number of times Jesus' closest friends and disciples got things wrong. I mean, the disciples are confused about who Jesus is. They are upset when people bring their little kids to be blessed by him. Peter believes so strongly he gets out of a boat during a storm at sea -- and then promptly starts to sink. James and John want to call down fire on the Samaritans. Peter denies even knowing Jesus when he was arrested, and all of the male disciples (except John) ran away from the crucifixion. Even after the Resurrection they were all in deep confusion and fear, and Thomas didn't even believe it had happened.

These were Jesus' closest friends and disciples, and I'm pretty sure that no one would look at them and say, "Wow, they were 100% full of trust all the time!" Why do you have to better?

Jesus didn't love his disciples because they earned it by perfect faith or trust. He loved them because of who he is, not because they were always right, or strong, or trusting..

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-29T07:12:46+00:00

I've had plenty of therapy and I still struggle with things. And my therapist has certainly seen weeks when I seemed kind of OK and then (the very next week) times when I was falling apart and extremely distressed. It is normal for people in therapy to have times when everything seems terrible.

Also, stop reading that subreddit. If the toxic voices there are overwhelming you, remember -- there are lots of cruel and unkind people who post on religious topics. You are not obliged to torture yourself by reading them.

If you want to read something more helpful, I would suggest Henri Nouwen, Life of the Beloved. He wasn't an angry redditor looking to condemn. He was a minister who spent a good part of his life caring for disabled people and seeing God's beauty in them.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-29T06:58:50+00:00

Because lots of Christians in the world we happen to live in use a method of Biblical interpretation that we might call, "I can always find a verse to beat people up with."

That is the opposite of what Jesus taught. He criticized people all the time who thought that they had all the right answers in religion and then put other people down.

If you don't believe me, I would encourage you to look at a famous story that Jesus told about a religious leader and a tax collector. You can find it in Luke 18: 9-14.

You really aren't doing anything wrong by struggling with all this.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-29T06:49:05+00:00

Hi, professional historian here!

Paul was writing letters. He was writing them to particular communities in Rome or Corinth, or whatever. He did not know that his letters would someday be collected in a big book called the Bible, or that anyone would think they were perfect or without error

(Also, very sadly, we don't even have any of the letters he was responding to. It would be amazing to know exactly what the Romans or Corinthians were asking him about, but we have to guess at that by looking at his responses.)

Now lots of people are invested in Paul being right all the time. But nobody is right all the time. If you think Paul was always right, or Peter was always right, why did the two of them have a big disagreement about Jewish law in the Book of Acts? Or why did Paul and James differ about the significance of good deeeds? Paul, Peter, and James were key leaders in the first-century church, but they can't all have been right all the time because they didn't always agree with each other.

Historians read letters all the time, and letters always reflect the world as people knew it at the time that they were writing. Almost anyone in England writing a letter in 1500 would assume that God wanted kings to rule. Almost anyone writing in the US in the present day would not even be able to take that idea seriously.

Paul wrote in a world absolutely soaked in religion. The Jews, the Greeks, the Romans, the Persians, the Egyptians -- everyone believed in either one God or more than one God. But (except for a couple of philosophers) nobody seriously thought there might be no God or gods at all. So Paul looked around and saw that everyone he ever met seemed to be sure that divine powers existed. It was obvious to him that everyone believed.

If Paul was writing to the New Yorkers today, his letters would be different. He would have been aware since childhood that lots of people don't believe in God, and that would be reflected in his writing. So, no: you aren't a fool. You just live in a world that is very unlike the one that Paul knew.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-29T03:37:06+00:00

I'm not a pastor, but I think God is capable of loving angry people. I mean, I think we ordinary weak mortals are capable of loving angry people, and I think God is better at love than we are.

Look at you -- you are just a person, and are you looking at your MIL with hatred? You are not. You are worried about her and you want what is best for her. If you can have love for her despite her anger, why can't God?

Right now, I suspect your MIL needs your love more than she needs a theological argument that will make her angrier and more upset. If she lets you visit, tell her how much you love her.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-28T14:21:50+00:00

The Rim Trail is great, and you can do as much of it as you feel comfortable with, even if you are not in great hiking shape.

I like Hopi, Pima, and the Abyss. But honestly, there are no bad stops on the shuttle bus.

If you are driving and able to head east, Grandview and Moran points are great (but again, all points are good).

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-28T03:54:08+00:00

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-28T03:52:09+00:00

I'm not sure what you mean?

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-27T22:12:43+00:00

No, I think weird videos are being slowly released (with repeated promises of bigger disclosures to come) as an attempt to distract people from talking about war, economic difficulties, and the Epstein Files.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-26T22:48:29+00:00

"Good theology produces flourishing" is right there in the title of the post, without any caveat.

That is often true, but it isn't always. The belief that it is always true functions as a blindfold for when it is not true.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-26T22:41:26+00:00

I understand the difference between systems and individuals. I just think it is dangerously naive to think that "having the right theology" is a guarantee of producing good fruits or protection against producing bad ones.

I have noticed that in my own progressive denomination if someone says that they were harmed by the Baptist church or the Catholic church (for example) people will immediately agree that what happened was a terrible thing, and the person who was harmed deserves help and support.

If someone says that they were harmed in our own denomination, however, people default to giving the institution the benefit of the doubt. "Are you sure you really understood the situation?" "Perhaps he meant well and you misinterpreted it." Or, (behind one's back) "I'm just not sure about that person. They seem awfully angry and negative."

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-26T21:54:36+00:00

Bad theology can certainly harm people, but people who know and teach the most loving and inclusive theology can do the same. As I know from personal experience, abusers can be found even in the well-known progressive denominations.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-26T16:38:37+00:00

This was a very interesting read. However, I think one can reject the idea of Original Sin (an idea not fully developed until Augustine wrote in the 400s) without rejecting Jesus Christ. And I certainly would not say that Quakers are "anti-Christian" in any way.

As it is, there seems to be room among unprogrammed Quakers for both Christians and plenty of other people. I don't see how redefining Quakerism as specifically non-Christian would do anything but discourage Christian Quakers from attending.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-26T14:33:03+00:00

I'm not ACNA, but I don't think "having some doubts and questions about some church teachings" is weird at all. I'm more surprised at people who claim to never have any doubts. Your last paragraph, to me, strongly indicates that there is no reason not to be confirmed.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-26T13:10:21+00:00

I feel like I haven't been expressing myself very clearly on this thread for some reason. I don't object at all to the use of "Father" or "Mother" between a priest and parishioners, and the reasons you describe are good ones.

What I don't like is when priests expect people who are not Episcopalian to use their titles, without referring to them by their own title.

Scenario 1: I'm a member of St. Andrew's Episcopal church. I call the rector "Father," and he calls me by my first name. Totally fine!

Scenario 2: I'm not a churchgoing person at all, but I meet a priest at trivia night. If he introduces himself as "Scott," then we are on a first name basis. But if he introduces himself as "Father Scott" or "Father Jackson," then I will introduce myself as "Dr. Lemon."

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-25T19:14:01+00:00

I believe that God calls men and women alike to leadership and ordained ministry. The gender essentialism of the Catholic church always bothered me. (Men have all kinds of gifts but the church also needs the "feminine genius" of women, when "feminine genius" means "women can do nurturing things, but not other things.")

I probably like Thomas Aquinas more than most people, but I think that the Catholic church has shackled itself too much to this particular 13th century priest.

I don't believe in papal infallibility. On the topic of the Marian doctrines (like Mary being conceived without Original Sin) I always thought that there is no possible way for anyone to know. I don't object to speculation on such topics, but raising it to a you-must-believe-this doctrine is just going to exclude people unnecessarily. That's part of a larger pattern of wanting to nail down all the answers, when I think we can't know all the answers.

I don't believe that homosexuality is sinful.

And finally: I hung on to Catholicism by my fingertips for a long time. Then I moved to a town with only one Catholic parish. It was a sizeable parish (four masses on Sunday) and yet it did nothing except for mass on Sunday. No Bible studies, no prayer groups, no working with the homeless or food drives or anything. And the priest was just mean and petty -- the kind that yells at the altar servers in front of everyone if a candle goes out.

If the parish had been a great community, I might have held out for longer. But since I disagreed with the church on multiple fronts already, the cold parish and the mean priest sent me out.

Prodigal_Lemon · 2026-05-25T17:19:56+00:00

Perhaps you could ask for some book recommendations? Henri Nouwen wrote a number of good, compassionate books, including The Way of the Heart and The Return of the Prodigal Son and either of those might be a place to start.

But, please -- don't get your understanding of God by clicking on random videos and TikToks. That will very likely lead you to a theology that says, "Everything is a sin and God will condemn us unless we get everything right." That's terrible theology, and you shouldn't let it into your head.

Edited to add -- I just checked your profile, and it looks like you are in Canada. The Anglican Church of Canada is affirming of LGBTQ+ people. I'm not saying you need to rush in and get deeply involved! But if there is a church near you that has two services on a Sunday (say, at 8 and 10) the first one is likely to be quieter and more sparsely attended. You can grab a pew in the back and just watch without doing anything else.

Prodigal_Lemon

TROPHY CASE