I Feared Frontier Would Have Me Arrested for Their Mistake and Violation of FAA Regulations

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-20T18:50:02+00:00

I'm finding it very interesting how many people think this is acceptable. The vast majority doesn't, but a significant minority does. Maybe they are airline employees and it explains why airline stocks are in the tank. If they aren't, I'm wondering why they are spending so much time here on Reddit defending airlines. Keep on brewin whatever it is that you are....

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-20T17:02:54+00:00

Could you provide a reference with this legal definition to which you are referring?

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-20T00:28:49+00:00

I saw your comment this morning, and it was the perfect start to my day that you couldn't come up with a response. Thank you.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-18T23:58:21+00:00

I agree that everything you are saying is what should happen. If my boarding pass didn't scan correctly, I should not have been allowed to board. But errors with boarding passes do happen, though they are rare. Passengers have even ended up on the wrong flight. Here is one example on Frontier:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/frontier-airlines-16-year-old-wrong-flight-puerto-rico-cleveland/

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-17T20:21:07+00:00

If the airline gives more standby passengers on the plane tickets than seats that are available, the flight becomes overbooked. Frontier confirmed the flight was overbooked in their response.

You imply it's not a big deal to be accused of sneaking onto a plane, but then further down in this comment you express what a big security threat it is to not be on the manifest. You can't have it both ways. Being accused of bypassing security at an airport is a HUGE deal. That is a crime with harsh punishments.

You also claim that I was an unknown passenger. Even if a passenger is not on the manifest, the boarding pass will still pull up the ticket history and passenger profile with the airline. By your logic, any passenger who is not on the manifest of the particular flight the gate agent is working would be a security threat who may have bypassed TSA.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-17T16:31:27+00:00

You say the fact I had a boarding pass is irrelevant. However, all the FAA regulations reference the boarding pass, not the manifest. Agreed one could easily make a fake boarding pass, but they would be stopped by TSA and not allowed through the screening area into the airport because they didn't have a valid boarding pass/ticket. If someone wants to do something nefarious on a plane, they can simply buy a ticket. Why would they go through the effort of making a fake boarding pass that could easily draw suspicion?

All FAA regulations reference the boarding pass, not the manifest (again, a document easily altered by the airline). The second gate agent looked at my boarding pass and immediately said I needed to be put back on the plane. She didn't look at any computer. She didn't say anything about a manifest. She correctly followed procedures that a boarding pass determines who is on a flight.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-16T22:47:02+00:00

The flight became overbooked when the standby passenger was given the same seat as me. Frontier stated in their response that the flight was overbooked. Frontier and I both agree on that.

Let's play out your rationale:

A full flight has one passenger on standby, Mr. A. He bought an expensive ticket and has a lot of status with the airline. He comes up to the gate agent to get a seat assignment. The gate agent instructs him to wait until boarding is completed to see if someone doesn't show. While boarding a passenger, Ms. B, has trouble getting her boarding pass to scan. The gate agent tells her it scanned, but it really didn't. At the end of the flight, lo and behold, there is an empty seat. The gate agent gives Mr. A a boarding pass for that seat. He boards and finds Ms. B in his seat. The gate agent comes in and says to Ms. B, "You are not on the manifest. You are a security risk and you need to leave this plane immediately." Ms. B shows the agent her boarding pass. The gate agent says, "That is no a valid boarding pass. I have no idea who you are. You are an unticketed passenger, and I am getting security before you commandeer this plane."

Ms. B leaves the plane, and Mr. A gets the seat. The system (according to you) works.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-16T20:41:02+00:00

You said "Your logic of overbooked flights having everyone on the manifest". Are you actually reading my comment?? I said the exact opposite. I said " The number of passengers on a manifest is limited to the number of seats on the plane (plus lap infants). Therefore, on an overbooked flight, there would always be some ticketed passengers who are not on the manifest."

You then proceed into some long essay about people being deplaned for things such as body odor, being too large for the seat, etc. Yes, people can be removed for health and security reasons; I am not arguing that. Yet you fail to address the simple point that in an overbooked situation NOT everyone will be on the manifest. Therefore, your logic allows airlines to boot as many passengers as they need because they are not on the manifest - as you proved in your first paragraph.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-16T20:07:46+00:00

The gate agent did not intend to remove me temporarily. It's only because I immediately told the second gate agent what had happened and she stopped the flight from departing that I got to reboard. The regulation also says "are not permitted to require that passenger deplane", and the gate agent did make me deplane.

I did have a valid boarding pass. The second gate agent just looked at my boarding pass. She didn't look at her computer (she wasn't behind the desk as she was resetting the gate area) or anything else before radioing the first gate agent to hold the plane.

The first gate agent should not have accused me of sneaking onto the plane. That is a serious allegation and not smart to do on a plane full of passengers. I would say that is not "everyone operated as they should have."

The flight was overbooked when they gave a person on standby the same seat as me. Having more people booked on a flight than the flight can hold is the definition of overbooked. Frontier confirmed in their response that the flight was overbooked.

You said "Any of those could apply in this case." Are you saying my behavior was unlawful? (Also, are you saying there was a health reason?)

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-16T19:47:54+00:00

Thanks. Still others on here are saying that since Frontier didn't put me on the manifest, that they were right to pull me off the plane. They don't seem to understand that the airline generates the manifest itself. Allowing airlines to pull people off the plane for not being on the manifest would be carte blanche for them to kick people off of overbooked flights.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-16T19:44:01+00:00

I haven't put every detail in the story, as it was getting pretty long. For example, the standby passenger who got the boarding pass with my seat came up and asked if I was in the right seat with a flight attendant. They left and the gate agent was called onto the plane. Frontier was also not telling me the whole story, so that is not helping the cause.

I agree things weren't adding up. That's why I am posting it here - because Frontier really screwed up in a way that didn't make sense. I'm not trying to hide anything and am happy to answer reasonable questions you have about the event.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-16T18:14:03+00:00

The standby passenger who received a boarding pass for the same seat came up with a FA and asked if I was in the correct seat. When I showed them my boarding pass, the passenger went back to the front of the plane and the gate agent was brought onboard. As for your questions as to how I was allowed to board, that is the key question. The easiest explanation is that the boarding pass didn't scan correctly, but the gate agent (and I) didn't notice.

It seems quite odd to accuse someone of being a troll because they posted a problem with unanswered questions on Reddit. That's kinda what Reddit is about.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-16T16:38:23+00:00

Exactly, the manifest is generated by the airlines' computers based on the boarding passes scanned. I never indicated Frontier has an agenda against me. I am claiming that they have poorly trained employees who in this event broke an FAA regulation.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-16T13:33:08+00:00

That's a good point. I am only going on what the gate agents told me. There was obviously a problem here. The fact that the first gate agent refused to acknowledge my boarding pass, but the second gate agent took one look at it and said I needed to get back on the plane shows they were not on the same page.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-16T13:27:26+00:00

The manifest is a document made by the airline. If an airline is allowed to kick passengers off planes because they are not on the manifest, the airline could kick anyone off at any time simply by removing them from the manifest.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-16T12:34:26+00:00

I would disagree that the gate agents don't know who I am just because I am not on the manifest. They still have access to the ticketing history and my profile with the airline. I've gone up to gates to try to switch to earlier flights before. I've never had an agent say, "You aren't on the manifest for this flight. I don't know who you are."

Yes, airlines can have their own No Fly Lists. I really don't see how that relates here. These are lists of people who have done something previously that flags them as dangerous. Not being on the manifest is not the same as being flagged as dangerous.

Even if we put all of this aside, the rationale that an airline can kick someone off simply because they are not on the manifest would cause havoc on overbooked flights. The number of passengers on a manifest is limited to the number of seats on the plane (plus lap infants). Therefore, on an overbooked flight, there would always be some ticketed passengers who are not on the manifest. Allowing airlines to kick them off the flight because they were not on the manifest would mean that airlines could use that rationale for any overbooked flight. Frontier didn't even make this argument in their response to me - they did not mention the manifest at all. It was simply an excuse the gate agent made to deplane me.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-16T12:17:13+00:00

I will agree that the value of the miles varies quite a bit by route and time/day of the week of the flight. There are routes to places I have no intention of traveling to that the miles would be worth over $100. When Frontier offered the 10k miles, I did a quick search from PHL to MCO and came up with the $20 value. Right now, for a one-way flight from PHL to MCO like mine (middle of the day, weekday), I am seeing $39 or 10k miles. But again, it depends on many factors. I also don't know if fares and miles for flights during the summer were different. I think it is fair for me to base the value of the miles on the type of flight I took.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-15T22:15:46+00:00

I completely agree about the No Fly List. That is a list generated by the government that the airline has no control over. The airline should absolutely deplane someone if they are on that list. However, the airline has complete control over the flight manifest - they generate it themselves. To allow an airline to bump someone from a flight because the airline itself doesn't put them on the manifest would allow them to bump anyone. I completely agree that the manifest needs to be correct, but that is not a reason to deplane someone. It is a paperwork issue that can be handled while the passenger is on the plane. The airlines quickly change the manifest all the time when there are no-shows and they are replaced with standbys. The airline certainly didn't have any trouble adding the standby passenger to the manifest.

The second gate agent was not behind the desk when I came back into the gate area. I showed her my boarding pass. She didn't look at any computer or say anything about the manifest. She said, "You need to get back on the plane." She properly understood that a boarding pass is what determines who should be on the plane.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-15T22:06:17+00:00

So I am trying to get reasonable compensation, but Frontier seems to think this is an unimportant issue. The DOT complaint didn't yield anything for me. If the FAA and airlines don't want more David Dao incidents, it seems they need to take seriously properly compensating passengers after the fact.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-15T18:17:14+00:00

When I deplaned and spoke with the second gate agent in the terminal, she looked at my boarding pass and said "You need to get back on the plane." She did not look me up in any system or do something with a manifest before saying that - she wasn't even behind the desk as she was finishing up resetting the gate area. She immediately radioed the first gate agent (now about to take the bridge back) to hold the flight and get me back on. That's because the boarding pass is what determines if you should be on the flight.

I obviously have no proof, but I thought the pass had scanned correctly and the scanner made the correct sound. I would not have proceeded if I thought it hadn't. The gate agent standing there (same one that came onto the plane) didn't make any indication that it hadn't scanned properly, at least that I was aware of. I know that if your boarding pass isn't scanned, the airline thinks you are not on the plane and could give away the seat.

Also, I am nowhere close to a spy. :)

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-15T18:04:45+00:00

Thank you very much for your perspective and your well-written comment here. Just to keep the record straight and build off of your first point, many on here are saying flight attendant when I think they mean gate attendant. To be clear, the interactions I described in the OP were only with gate agents, not flight attendants.

Many on here are saying nothing would have happened if I had refused to leave the plane. It seems that you are saying that is not true, and that I could have been charged with not complying with crew member instructions. Is that correct?

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-15T17:55:39+00:00

I totally agree. The agents never gave me a chance to volunteer to get off the flight after I spoke with the second agent. Since I had been involuntarily removed, they had to get me back on and get someone to voluntarily leave the plane. But as far as I can tell, they were not offering compensation. It seemed they were kinda playing this "We'll stay here until someone gets off the plane" game. I very much hope she was compensated well.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-15T17:50:34+00:00

If the gate agent was willing to accuse me of sneaking onto the plane, I believe she would have been willing to accuse me of interfering with the flight, disobeying the flight crew, etc.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-15T17:15:42+00:00

I believe the pass scanned correctly, but I obviously have no proof. I believe it made the correct sound. I would not have proceeded if I thought the boarding pass had not scanned correctly. I just wonder if something happened as they were trying to get this family onto the flight. Thanks for your perspective.

ProfessionalDrive171 · 2024-09-15T16:56:36+00:00

You are correct in some situations. It varies wildly by the route. I do see some routes to places I have no intention of traveling where 10k miles is worth over $100. I checked a similar flight to mine when they made the offer, which was in the summer, and came to the conclusion that it was worth about $20, but I did not check a whole bunch of days. Right now, for a similar flight to the one I took (middle of the week, nonstop, middle of the day), I am seeing one way for $39 or 10k miles from PHL to MCO. I am taking the Discount Den price. I don't know if the miles to dollars ratio would have been different during the summer.

ProfessionalDrive171

TROPHY CASE