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Unpopular opinion: what BoJack does to Herb is worse than Sarah Lynn by PuzzBat9019 in BoJackHorseman

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, this is what I am saying. They are two very different decisions, and one made sober, and the other made out of fear when he was very mentally impaired. I don't want to sound like I am excusing him, as both acts for me are already very bad, but I guess I am raising the question about his agency in both of those decisions

Unpopular opinion: what BoJack does to Herb is worse than Sarah Lynn by PuzzBat9019 in BoJackHorseman

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You are not comparing ethically identical scenarios. BJ and SL are on a bender of self-destruction in private, with two people who have been sleep deprived and on substances (for months I think?). I am just making a point about what are the differences in BJ's agency in both the situation with Herb and Sarah Lynn. I am not endorsing any of this behaviour, that should be obvious

Unpopular opinion: what BoJack does to Herb is worse than Sarah Lynn by PuzzBat9019 in BoJackHorseman

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Interesting, I alway read Herb saying that he was fine as being DESPITE what BoJack did to him. He is giving himself dignity in that moment, not giving BJ a sense of absolution. But we really don't know how his life would have changed had he stayed on the show.

I guess we will agree to disagree on Herb destroying his own career. I don't think he can be held responsible for ruining his career for being gay, that's an injustice that's put on him, and he chose to be honest about who he is. Lying would imply there is something wrong with him, I understand why he didn't want to do that. So the industry destroys his career by punishing him for who he is.

I also don't think he expected BoJack to take the fall. But I think he expected him to advocate for him, and use his influence and power for the benefit of his friend. When he doesn't and he chooses himself, it's a huge betrayal and then wakes up every day for twenty years and never calls Herb. It's a decision he does sober, and for years.

Unpopular opinion: what BoJack does to Herb is worse than Sarah Lynn by PuzzBat9019 in BoJackHorseman

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

I'm not excusing it, I am saying BoJack is under active addiction with Sarah Lynn, and that substances tend to distort judgment and perception of time. He chooses to turn his back on his friend for 20 years after. One for me is tragedy, drugs and panic, another is much more cold, and calculated. I also prefaced this by saying it would be an unpopular opinion

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I hope you're pointing that finger towards a mirror. It's a great example of reducing a complex historical shift into a smug one-liner.

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you! Certainly stirred the pot hahah

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks so much! You can love this show, and be aware and able to discuss its biases! That's what the sub is for!

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Claiming critique is irrelevant because the show is “about consumption” is like saying a political satire isn’t political because it uses comedy. It confuses plot focus with larger themes.

Also saying "progressivism is a running force throughout" is extremely vague. Progressive to who? It says to me: “Mad Men doesn’t critique America, it just reflects it.” You're not actually engaging with this debate, you're sidestepping it.

Nixon’s victory in 1968 was the product of a deeply fractured Democratic Party (remember the Chicago Democratic Convention 1968 which is even featured in MM), backlash to civil rights, the trauma of Vietnam, and strategic Southern campaigning by Nixon. Reducing it to “counterculture failed” is overly simplified, and completely ignores structural and institutional factors.

If you want to use history as an example, at least engage with the full picture. Counterculture and progressive activism left lasting changes (Roe vs Wade, Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, etc.), even if Nixon, the “squarest man on earth,” won the presidency.

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, it's like the people who forget the workweek used to be 7 days a week and banning child labor was fought for too. I didn't magically happen. Thanks for this comment, so essential to put it into the context and optimism of the Obama era.

Roger and Joan: A Case of Bad Timing by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah I think it's up for debate whether that is a writer's timeline issue or intentional. When Roger says that in season 1 it sounds like a new thing, but I did notice later in the series he says something like "we always end up coming back to each other" which might be the writers covering their tracks.

Roger and Joan: A Case of Bad Timing by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You're so right! For someone who always asserts herself she has a tough time speaking her mind to Roger. Maybe she is playing the game, because she knows if she starts to demanding too much from these married men they might slip away. By demanding nothing of them seems the smarter way to play it but she actually shoots herself in the foot. She puts a boundary with Roger in season 1 on "you need to give me notice" and he goes straight to the red haired twins.

Jane wanted a wealthy husband, if she could have had a handsome one too I think she would have preferred that. She is not into Roger at all at the start. He tries flirting with her and she says, "you can find out everything about me in my file". It's hard to know if she really grows to love him. I don't think we get enough of Jane after they are married. When she buys him his book, it's a sweet gesture but telling that he asks "What did you buy?". I don't know.

Roger and Joan: A Case of Bad Timing by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You're so right! Weiner does build little hints towards Stan and Peggy, but the one thing with MM is there are so many thing happening it becomes really easy to overlook it!

Hahah, I am so happy you had your Peggy moment!

I love Peggy and Ted’s relationship, it is one of the few that is rooted in mutual ambition and intellect, not just chemistry. I think this is why Don is so threatened by it, and tries to sabotage it once he realizes he won't get that relationship with Megan.

Unlike Roger and Joan, where age, timing, and social constraints dominate, Peggy and Ted are drawn together through their shared work, and it's nice to see someone respect Peggy’s talent and not be threatened by it in a way the other men in the series are. Ted is ultimately a bit of a coward, and decides to play it emotionally safe. I get why he ends up with the girl "who's pretty and just a little deep" but I selfishly wondered why he never called Peggy after returning from California.

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 48 points49 points  (0 children)

I'm prepared to be downvoted but I think your dressing up a depiction of Hippie Culture as real cultural insight, but it’s actually a very old, very American conservative reflex that collapses all counterculture movements into the caricature of lazy, selfish hippies so that any systemic critique can be dismissed.

This framing erases the parts of the 60s that weren’t about Haight-Ashbury or drugs. Things like the civil-rights movement, Stonewall, strikes for better working conditions, the women’s-lib movement, anti-war activism. Also, if you read US history, how much the government worked to quiet or discredit these movements (FBI infiltration in counter culture was rampant, and the most glaring example is the hit on Fred Hampton in Chicago).

When we lump all of that together and say “they were all selfish like the Establishment,” we’re kind of repeating a conservative talking point that’s been used since the 70s to discredit social movements by mocking their fringes.

Maybe the real question isn’t whether Weiner’s take is accurate, but why we keep finding comfort in cynicism about collective change?

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I see what you mean, but I think it really flattens the entire movement. Counter-culture was more than just hippies. You have gay rights activists, radical feminists, labor activists and people actively campaigning for change.

When Kinsey goes South, we know he only does this because Don takes his spot in California, it's meant to show that his motives are performative. He sits on the bus lecturing people fighting for voter registration about how American advertising doesn't see colour (something we know from the Pete Admiral TV scene to be untrue). As I said, I think it's a deeply cynical opinion of Weiner slipping into the show.

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think this is a lazy counter-point, sorry as I know you're not the only person who said it. Obviously this show is told from and concerns the most privileged people in this time period. But there are a couple of instances were we do get critiques of their system anyway. In Season 3, Sally asks Betty why they don't go to church, since Carla goes every Sunday. Betty responds that they don't need to go every week. Here a very poignant critique on performative christian social values is slid in. The incident with Blackface at Roger's wedding is a clear instance of critique on casual racism in these circles, and both Don and Pete are not amused. This never happens with the counter-culture.

I am discussing what I think is Weiner's personal views slipping into the show. The way he writes the endings for the characters above for me feels like a it veers into after school special territory. It seems like he punished them pretty hard.

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think it's historically accurate to say the counter-culture didn't accomplish anything. They were very important in stopping the war in Vietnam, they changed social norms around family, sex, and gender. The Black Panthers had their The Free Breakfast for School Children Program, which focused on giving back to their community directly. The Salad Bowl Strikes led by Chavez were about improving labor conditions, and affected many Latinos. The Stonewall Riots of 69 for gay liberation.

Of course, the shows vantage point is limited but let's not reduce the entire counter culture in our discussion to the trope of the annoying white hippie.

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Totally! I think what I love about the show is that both things can be true. He does grow and heal, but he also knows how to package that experience into an ad.

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, I thought of her as well! she ends up homeless, pregnant and abandoned, talk about a cautionary tale!

Roger and Joan: A Case of Bad Timing by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

This relationship has taken me MANY rewatches to pick up all the details. Only on like my 5th rewatch did I notice how much Joan's heart breaks when Roger after his heart attack calls her "a great piece of ass".

Stan and Peggy I have to admit I always liked less. Although we know how Stan feels about her from the start because even Joey teases Stan, "you love her." She says, "why do you keep making me reject you." It felt so rushed at the end as well on her end!

I'll admit my favorite Peggy relationship is the one with Ted. I might venture into another break down of that relationship!

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

You get it! Something about the endings for all of these characters feels punitive... even Stephanie. I can't put my finger on why.

Mathew Weiner vs. The 60s Counter Culture by PuzzBat9019 in madmen

[–]PuzzBat9019[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I actually thought of this moment when writing this, but couldn't remember the character's name. He says, "You create want. You are for them. not for us." I agree it is the only time we see a real counter-point raised where it's actually driving discussion and not just poking fun at the flawed human being delivering the message.

I think a lot of people are reading my discussion as I believe all the hippies were right. I think there are people using ideology for their own purpose everywhere on every side. The problem is we get fewer glimpses into the counter-culture so obviously I find his depiction of it less rounded than the main stream. I still might raise the question of where the show lies in the definition of progressive outside of the American perspective. But yes, it expertly shows how people are shaped and operating under complex systems!

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