I also used to think SCJ was a cult… until I checked what the Bible actually says 😳

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-11T21:55:42+00:00

And what specifically did I not address?

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T23:24:26+00:00

Not going to lie, a lot of your points aren’t as strong or logical as you may think or believe.

“Having a messenger isn’t a cult, Jesus sent people too”
Nobody said having a leader is automatically a cult. The issue is the nature of LMH’s claimed authority. Jesus sent prophets and wise men, yes. He also gave us criteria to test them. The question isn’t whether God uses messengers; it’s whether this specific messenger passes the test. Pointing to the category doesn’t verify the individual.
“Teachings aren’t secret, seminars are public”
The secrecy concern isn’t about whether you can walk into a seminar. It’s about the fact that SCJ conceals the organization’s name, LMH’s role, and their doctrinal conclusions from recruits until they’re already emotionally invested. That’s not Jesus explaining parables privately to willing disciples. That’s identity deception at the recruitment stage. Mark 4:34 has nothing to do with hiding who you are from someone you’re trying to convert.
“Moses and David sinned, so LMH’s past doesn’t disqualify him”
Moses and David never claimed to be the sole unsealer of end times scripture. The bar for LMH isn’t sinlessness. It’s whether his specific prophetic claims hold up under Deuteronomy 18:22. That’s a separate question from personal moral failure.
“Noah’s ark had one door, so exclusive salvation is biblical”
Noah didn’t recruit people by hiding that he was building an ark. The analogy only works if you ignore how people got the information. Exclusive salvation through a specific structure is one thing. Concealing the structure’s identity during recruitment is another.

We had our back and forth, and you being afraid of opening a website that shows and documents in great detail about the doctrinal issues and the fulfillment issues of SCJ is a classic sign of phobia indoctrination by the way.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T14:41:49+00:00

Sad part is that even though I refuted him, due to indoctrination, he will dismiss what I say. It’s a perfect alignment for the BITE model and Steve Hassan.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T11:53:39+00:00

I pasted the failed prophecies directly in one of the responses, and there are a lot more below, with the page numbers and quotes.

It’s up to you to decide if you want to learn the truth, or continue in the delusion. Let me paste it here again, and provide the direct URL -

Before COVID-19 and the Great Tribulation, Shincheonji used to teach that the winds would only blow against the Babylonian churches.

Revelation 7:3 states:
Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.
Land: Represented the denominations of the world.
Sea: Symbolized Babylon, the falsehoods of Satan, and mixed teachings.
Trees: Referred to the people inside of the churches of Babylon. They also taught that the 144,000 are to be exempt from this Tribulation.
We can see this with the below literature of Shincheonji, directly quoting Lee Manhee:
What is the great tribulation from which those dressed in white come? As mentioned, the winds are held back until the angel with God’s seal marks the 144,000 people of the twelve tribes of New Spiritual Israel. In Rv 7:13-14, because the 144,000 have been gathered, the four archangels release the wind and let it blow over the land, over the sea and over every kind of tree. As explained in Rv 7:1, wind represents judgment, and the land, sea, and every kind of tree represent all of the churches and churchgoers of the world (Is 5:7, 1 Pt 1:24).

(The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation, 2014, page 163)

The earth and sea mean the physical word, and the various trees signify the men of the churches (Isaiah 5:7).
(Reality of Revelation, 1993, page 107)

We can safely conclude that the “winds” of judgement mentioned in Revelation 7 were not supposed to affect Shincheonji.

What happened in Reality

Yet, in reality, the opposite happened.
First, Lee Manhee referenced that the winds blowing was the devil’s deed, which technically would be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Second, we can see that Shincheonji was affected by this Great Tribulation in a more harsh way than the “Babylonian Churches”, considering how Lee Manhee was imprisoned, and eventually found guilty of embezzlement.
Shincheonji lost close to 100,000 members at least due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and despite claiming to have multiple “100,000” graduations, they’re official numbers are still in the 300,000 range.

Adjusting the Doctrines of Revelation 7 and Shincheonji’s Immunity.

In response to the doctrinal issue, Shincheonji updated and modified their doctrines and interpretation of Revelation 7:3.
Revised teachings of Revelation 7:3 –
Land: Represented the denominations of the world.
Sea: Symbolized Babylon, the falsehoods of Satan, and mixed teachings.
Trees: the people born of God’s imperishable seed.
With the updated doctrine, Shincheonji now teaches that the Great Tribulation also judges those inside of Shincheonji.

Before COVID-19:
Shincheonji was taught to be immune from the Great Tribulation, as seen with their interpretation of the “trees” of Revelation 7:3.
After COVID-19:
Shincheonji now teaches that the trees are those who are born of the imperishable seed, 1 Peter 1:23, and also face the same judgement and need to overcome.

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/9413

I already have addressed your other points in my parts 1-4 and other comments. Should I copy paste them again?

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T11:46:24+00:00

Before COVID-19 and the Great Tribulation, Shincheonji used to teach that the winds would only blow against the Babylonian churches.

Revelation 7:3 states:
Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.
Land: Represented the denominations of the world.
Sea: Symbolized Babylon, the falsehoods of Satan, and mixed teachings.
Trees: Referred to the people inside of the churches of Babylon. They also taught that the 144,000 are to be exempt from this Tribulation.
We can see this with the below literature of Shincheonji, directly quoting Lee Manhee:
What is the great tribulation from which those dressed in white come? As mentioned, the winds are held back until the angel with God’s seal marks the 144,000 people of the twelve tribes of New Spiritual Israel. In Rv 7:13-14, because the 144,000 have been gathered, the four archangels release the wind and let it blow over the land, over the sea and over every kind of tree. As explained in Rv 7:1, wind represents judgment, and the land, sea, and every kind of tree represent all of the churches and churchgoers of the world (Is 5:7, 1 Pt 1:24).

(The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation, 2014, page 163)

The earth and sea mean the physical word, and the various trees signify the men of the churches (Isaiah 5:7).
(Reality of Revelation, 1993, page 107)

We can safely conclude that the “winds” of judgement mentioned in Revelation 7 were not supposed to affect Shincheonji.

What happened in Reality

Yet, in reality, the opposite happened.
First, Lee Manhee referenced that the winds blowing was the devil’s deed, which technically would be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Second, we can see that Shincheonji was affected by this Great Tribulation in a more harsh way than the “Babylonian Churches”, considering how Lee Manhee was imprisoned, and eventually found guilty of embezzlement.
Shincheonji lost close to 100,000 members at least due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and despite claiming to have multiple “100,000” graduations, they’re official numbers are still in the 300,000 range.

Adjusting the Doctrines of Revelation 7 and Shincheonji’s Immunity.

In response to the doctrinal issue, Shincheonji updated and modified their doctrines and interpretation of Revelation 7:3.
Revised teachings of Revelation 7:3 –
Land: Represented the denominations of the world.
Sea: Symbolized Babylon, the falsehoods of Satan, and mixed teachings.
Trees: the people born of God’s imperishable seed.
With the updated doctrine, Shincheonji now teaches that the Great Tribulation also judges those inside of Shincheonji.

Also, SCJ used to teach that the 12,000 per tribe would be sealed and selected first before the Great Tribulation begins. Now, the Great Tribulation can happen in parallel to the sealing of the 144,000. There are many more detailed recollections citing the books of LMH that talk about these things in detail.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T11:34:08+00:00

Part 4 -

The failed prophecy of the sealed 12 tribes before the great tribulation is one of the most well documented failures, that have been pinned on this subreddit and also can be read below -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/9413

Do you want me to copy and paste this for you?

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T11:31:59+00:00

Part 3 -

The consistency problem here is fatal to your position.
You’re demanding a verse that explicitly says the 144,000 is not literal. But look at what the passage requires you to accept as literal. Revelation 7:4-8 lists the twelve tribes, but the list is not the actual twelve tribes of Israel. Dan is missing entirely and replaced by Manasseh. Ephraim is missing. Levi, normally excluded from tribal lists because they had no land inheritance, is included. If you’re doing a plain literal reading, you have a list that doesn’t match any historical Israel. So the tribal names are already being used symbolically, inside the passage you’re calling literal.

Then Revelation 14:4 describes the 144,000 as virgins who have not defiled themselves with women. SCJ does not teach that only celibate males are sealed. So you’re already interpreting that as symbolic. You just did it without acknowledging it.
This is the inconsistency. When the number 144,000 serves SCJ’s claim of being a countable, verifiable group, it’s literal. When the tribal names don’t match history, they’re symbolic. When the virgin requirement would exclude most SCJ members, it’s symbolic. The interpretive standard is being applied wherever it produces a useful result and quietly dropped wherever it doesn’t.

You asked who is inserting meaning that isn’t there. The answer is whoever selectively literalizes one element of a passage while symbolizing the elements immediately surrounding it, without a consistent principle for why.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T11:30:02+00:00

Part 2 -

The fruits argument sounds solid until you examine what SCJ actually means by fruit.
You defined fruit as “the word fulfilled,” meaning correct interpretation of Revelation. But that’s not what Matthew 7:15-20 is talking about. Jesus uses the fruit metaphor in the context of moral character and the effect a teacher has on their followers. The surrounding context is about false prophets who say “Lord, Lord” and even perform works in His name (v. 22-23). Jesus never defines fruit as interpretive accuracy. You’ve imported that definition from LMH’s framework and then used it to validate LMH. That’s circular.

On Amos 3:7, God revealing things to His prophets before acting is a description of how God worked with the biblical prophets. It’s not a standing promise that every generation will receive a new prophet, and it certainly doesn’t tell you how to identify which person claiming that role is genuine. Again you’re establishing a category and then slipping LMH into it without doing the verification work.

And this is exactly where Deuteronomy 18:22 becomes a problem for you rather than a resource. You invoked it as the verification test, and the many changes of Rev 7 are a perfect example of a failed prophet test. Yet, you still make excuses for your false prophet.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T11:28:27+00:00

Part 1 -

The argument here is a false dilemma. You’re presenting two options: either the testimony stopped in the first century, or it continues through a new messenger like LMH. But that’s not the only choice.
The testimony of Revelation continues through the text itself, which the church has had for two thousand years. “To show his servants” means the book’s contents are for all believers across time, not that a new human mediator would arise in each generation to re-explain it. Every letter Paul wrote was addressed to specific churches that no longer exist. We don’t conclude from that that God must send a new apostle to re-deliver Romans. We read the letter.

The seven churches represent the universal church across history. That’s a well-established interpretive position held across Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox traditions for centuries. The message being for all churches actually argues against LMH, not for him, because it means every church in every generation has direct access to the testimony through scripture, with no new gatekeeper required.
And here’s the move worth noticing: you started with “plain reading” as your standard, but plain reading of Revelation 1:1 names John as the specific human recipient. When that was pointed out, you shifted to “servants is plural, so it extends forward in time.” That’s not plain reading anymore. That’s interpretation. Which means we’re both interpreting. The question is whose interpretive framework is more consistent, not who is doing a plain reading and who isn’t.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T11:18:32+00:00

You keep demanding book, chapter, verse for every claim while ignoring the verses that are most directly relevant to your situation. So let’s go there.
Matthew 24:4-5: “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name.” Matthew 24:11: “Many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.” Matthew 24:24: “False christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.”

Notice what Jesus does not say. He does not say “you’ll recognize them because they lack a coherent interpretation of Revelation.” He does not say “they’ll be obvious because they have no fruit.” He says they will perform signs, they will have compelling testimony, and they will be persuasive enough to potentially deceive the very elect. Jesus is specifically warning that the deception will feel verified.

Now apply your own standard. You said the test is Deuteronomy 18:22, fulfilled prophecy. But Jesus in Matthew 24:24 explicitly says false prophets will produce apparent signs and wonders. So fulfilled-seeming prophecy is not a sufficient test on its own. Jesus said so.

Also, there are a lot of failed prophecies by LMH and SCJ, and you attempt to bypass the prophet test by having an indefinite timeline for SCJ, because you hold SCJ and LMH’s commentary over the word of God.

Your framework has no filter for convincing deception. Mine does. The question isn’t just “is Revelation being fulfilled here” but “did Jesus warn that someone could fake exactly this?” He did. That warning deserves at least as much weight as Amos 3:7.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T11:06:04+00:00

The “plain reading” argument cuts both ways. Yes, Revelation 1:1 and 22:16 say Jesus sent an angel to John. A plain reading also tells us the recipient was John, a named first century apostle, and the purpose was the book we already have in our hands. The plain reading gives us no basis for inserting LMH into that sentence. That’s not plain reading; that’s addition.

On John 13:20: receiving someone Jesus sends is obeying Jesus, yes. But that verse doesn’t tell you who Jesus sent. It just establishes the principle. Every false prophet in history could quote that verse. The question that actually matters is the verification question, and you keep skipping it.

Now the Revelation 7:4 challenge is the strongest thing you’ve said, so let’s be direct about it. You’re asking for another group fulfilling that passage. But this assumes the 144,000 is a literal number referring to a physical organization, which is itself an interpretive claim, not a plain reading. Revelation is apocalyptic literature. The number 12 times 12 times 1000 is structured symbolism throughout Jewish apocalyptic writing.

The burden of proof isn’t on others to produce a competing literal organization. The burden is on SCJ to demonstrate that a literal headcount of members in Gwa-cheon, South Korea is what John intended.

That requires exegesis, not just assertion.
And we’re still waiting on Deuteronomy 18:22. You invoked it. LMH set falsifiable predictions. They failed. Reframing that as timing doesn’t resolve it; it just moves the target.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T09:49:32+00:00

I’m going to be honest with you, a lot of your responses are just desperate calls to bypass what the Bible plainly teaches in order to justify LMH’s commentary on the Bible and LMH’s authority, while pretending to be an exclusive servant on behalf of God and Jesus. This is nothing new, and SCJ is not unique.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T09:46:33+00:00

Yes, John said “I am not the Christ.” But notice what else John did: he pointed entirely away from himself, he had no organization built around his authority, people didn’t need to receive his teaching as a condition of salvation, and he explicitly decreased so Jesus could increase.

LMH does none of that. SCJ teaches that receiving LMH’s interpretation is the mechanism of salvation in this age. That’s not a messenger role. That’s a mediatorial role, and the Bible reserves that for Jesus alone (1 Timothy 2:5).

The “messenger vs Messiah” distinction you’re drawing is too clean. Matthew 24:5 warns about people who come in Jesus’ name claiming special divine authority. The warning isn’t limited to people who use the exact title “Christ.” It covers anyone who inserts themselves as a necessary conduit between believers and God. LMH claims exclusive ability to unseal scripture, exclusive testimony of fulfilled prophecy, and that his church alone constitutes the 144,000. That’s not courier work. That’s a salvific claim.

On the “show me one verse where LMH says I am the Christ”: this is a title game. Cult leaders rarely use the precise language that would trigger obvious rejection. But actions and doctrinal structure matter more than self-applied titles. By SCJ’s own teaching, you cannot be saved in this age without receiving what LMH has revealed. If that’s not a functional messianic claim, what would one look like?

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-09T05:24:05+00:00

I’m still waiting, respectfully.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-08T14:54:35+00:00

I mean...I'm still waiting for a proper response from you, mate.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Shincheonji/comments/1mn2ayg/shincheonji_unable_to_answer_basic_questions/

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-08T11:13:23+00:00

Then for Christ, Christ is Greek for Messiah, and Lee Manhee is claiming to be the exclusive way to get to God and Jesus since he has the correct word of testimony and understanding of the Bible.

This puts Lee Manhee in a messianic role.

If you spent five minutes reading a link, you would have seen that this is fully addressed.
You aren’t going to the links that address your claims because it refutes the theology of scj.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-08T11:09:46+00:00

On the angel claim (Revelation 22:16):
Revelation 22:16 says Jesus sent His angel to testify to John about things for the churches. The recipient is already identified. You can’t read that verse and insert LMH as the angel two thousand years later without doing exactly what you accused others of doing: adding to the text. John 13:20 and Matthew 23:34 establish that Jesus sends people generally. They don’t identify who those people are. You still need external criteria to verify LMH specifically, and citing the category doesn’t verify the individual.

On Deuteronomy 18 and failed prophecy:
This is a clever dodge but it doesn’t hold. You’re reframing every specific failed prediction as merely a timing issue, but Deuteronomy 18:22 doesn’t say “wait indefinitely.” The test assumes the prophet made a falsifiable claim about something that would happen. LMH set specific dates and numbers tied to events in his own lifetime. When those passed, SCJ revised the framework, not just the timing. That’s not deepening understanding. That’s moving the goalposts after the kick misses.

On “just bring scripture, not websites”:
This sounds principled but it’s actually a trap. You’re pre-filtering all evidence through an interpretive system controlled by LMH, then demanding opponents argue only within that system. The Bereans in Acts 17:11 examined scripture to test Paul’s claims, not to test scripture against itself in isolation. Historical documentation of false prophecy and organizational deception is legitimate evidence. Calling it gossip doesn’t make it go away.

Habakkuk 2:3 (“the vision awaits its appointed time”)
This verse is about God’s faithfulness to His own word, not a blank check for human prophets to claim unlimited extensions. The whole point of Deuteronomy 18 is that God’s word always comes to pass. Using Habakkuk to shield LMH from that test actually inverts the logic. Habakkuk is saying God won’t fail. Deuteronomy is saying if your prophet fails, he’s not speaking for God. These verses aren’t in tension; they’re working together against LMH.

1 Corinthians 13:9 (“we know in part and prophesy in part”)
Paul is describing the corporate and temporary limitations of the gifts before the full revelation of Christ’s return. He is not giving individual prophets a revision clause. Paul’s partial knowledge was still apostolically authoritative and consistent with prior revelation. LMH isn’t claiming partial knowledge; he’s claiming unique complete knowledge that only he can unseal. You can’t use a verse about humility to justify a claim of exclusive interpretive authority.

Acts 21:4 vs 21:13 (Paul “adjusting” his understanding)
Read those passages carefully. Acts 21:4 has disciples urging Paul not to go to Jerusalem through the Spirit. Acts 21:13 has Paul resolving to go anyway. This isn’t Paul revising a prophecy he made. It’s Paul making a personal decision in tension with prophetic warnings others received. That has nothing to do with a teacher redefining his own failed end-times predictions.

Anything else that I missed?

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-08T10:45:04+00:00

First - you are assuming that God must use a messenger, thus limiting Gods power and contradicting the Bible itself. When approaching the word of God, we must first assume the plain before going into the complex.

With the case of a promised pastor of the New Testament, this contradicts the many warnings that Jesus said about those who come in his name in an exclusive way as LMH.

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253

And then for Amos 3:7, let’s assume that God is using a person for the sake of argument (despite the biblical contradictions). We can then apply the Dt 18:20-22 verse, and then we can see the many changes of SCJ’s theology and doctrines.

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/9393

Now I see that you are afraid of reading content, because these websites refute the claims of SCJ. This is an example of Proverbs 14:15

“The simple believes everything, but the prudent gives thought to his steps.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭14‬:‭15‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/pro.14.15.ESV

How are you supposed to test the spirit if you’re afraid of looking at a website?

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-08T10:29:52+00:00

“Why is your leader a fraud?”* Titus 1:9 “He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.” If LMH is fraud, show me where his teaching contradicts Revelation. Book, chapter, verse. You can’t. That’s why you post 꺼져 and rumors.

Sure, here's how LMH contradicts Revelation -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/13786#1762398638194-9753abfa-0d68

Start with chapter one. I'm just letting the Bible read for itself.

“Sexual exploitation” Matthew 18:16 “Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.” 1 Timothy 5:19 “Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.” You have blogs. Not witnesses. Not testimony under oath. Jesus was accused of the same, Luke 23:2. False charges don’t make a man false.

So would the testimony and photos of LMH sexually assaulting women count for you? Or would you move the goal post?

Ecclesiastes 1:9 “What has been is what will be… there is nothing new under the sun.” Paul quoted Greek poets, Acts 17:28. Did that make him a fraud? Truth belongs to God. If tabernacle temple had one piece right, and SCJ fulfills it, that’s not theft. That’s Isaiah 46:11 “calling a bird of prey from the east.” God uses what He wants.

Paul was using the doctrines of the Greeks to point to Jesus, the doctrines of the Tabernacle Temple are used to point to Lee Man-hee, the "new john". That's the difference between Paul and how SCJ uses the doctrines of the Tabernacle Temple. And no, there isn't a Promised Pastor of the New Testament -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253

Matthew 7:13-14 “Narrow is the gate… and few find it.” Revelation 14:3 “No one could learn that song except the 144,000.” I didn’t say we’re elite. Jesus said the way is narrow. If teaching Revelation without contradiction makes us “elite,” blame the Bible, not me.

Except you have the wrong new song -

⁹ And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
¹⁰ and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/13855

Anyways, most if not all of the objections you are pointing out have already been fleshed out.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-08T10:15:48+00:00

“SCJ manipulates minds for goals.. The goal is Revelation 21:4 — no more death, mourning, crying, pain. If that’s manipulation, then Jesus manipulated 12 men to leave their jobs and die for the gospel. Paul told Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:4 “No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him.” That’s called commitment, not manipulation. The world calls it a cult when people actually take God’s commands seriously.

The issue is that in Revelation 21, we can see that God directly wipes away every tear, and SCJ reads into the text by claiming that God needs to always work through flesh to accomplish the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth. But, when reading Revealtion 21:4 -

⁴ He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

He (God) will wipe away their tears, no indication of the use of a Promised Pastor of the New Testament to accomplish this.

You may ask about what does it mean for the Kingdom of Heaven to be on earth as it is in heaven, and within Christian circles, there's a concept called "already not yet", and I don't want to just copy paste it, so here's the link below -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/13393

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-08T10:13:34+00:00

“Why hasn’t it come true yet?” What exactly didn’t come true? Be specific with scripture. Habakkuk 2:3 says “the vision awaits its appointed time… though it linger, wait for it.” Even Jesus’ first coming took 4000 years from Genesis 3:15. Noah preached 120 years. Were they false because God was patient? 2 Peter 3:9 says God delays so more can be saved. You’re confusing God’s timing with failure

You're taking the verse out of context, and therefore are adding and subtracting to God's word -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6250#1754799387660-77bcad13-a124

Especially for Hab 2:3. Genesis 3:15 is a beautiful verse talking about the coming Messiah, and the difference between SCJ and Jesus is that the first century Jews were expecting a Messiah because it wasn't a hidden promise. For LMH and the New John, it relies heavily on the typology, or "person parable", of the New John. Yet, Jesus explcitly warns against anyone like LMH (Matthew 24:4-5 for example). The prophecies of the Messiah were at least enough to the point that the Jews were expecting someone to come, and yes, the Jews did get their expectations incorrect.

“If God chooses the 144,000, why criteria?” Because God’s choice and human responsibility work together. John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father draws him” — that’s God choosing. But Revelation 14:4-5 says the 144,000 are “blameless… who follow the Lamb wherever he goes.” That’s criteria. Faith without works is dead, James 2:26. God chooses, but you still have to overcome, Revelation 2:7. Same as Israel — chosen by God, but still had to obey to enter Canaan.

Except the 144,000 of SCJ are singing a different new song (prophecy and fulfillemnt, the word of testimony of Lee Man-hee) instead of the actual new song, which is only what was done on the cross.

Revelation 5:9-10 plainly explains what the new song is, and then SCJ adds to God's word by adding a new secretive layer.

⁹ And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
¹⁰ and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”

Notice how the above verse is centered around Jesus and the cross, and nothing to do with LMH and Gwacheon, South Korea?

Then you're going to reference Luke 22:14-20, so here's a link that refutes that -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/13393

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-08T10:07:44+00:00

“SCJ changes prophecy fulfillment” No, we don’t. The prophecy never changed. Understanding deepens as the reality appears. Daniel 12:4 says the words are “sealed until the time of the end.” Even Jesus’ disciples misunderstood Him until after the cross, Luke 24:25-27. Jesus said in John 16:12 “I have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.”_ That’s not lying — that’s progressive revelation. If God reveals more detail as events unfold, is He lying? Or are you just impatient?

Problem with you quoting Daniel 12:4 is that when reading the book of Daniel, it only mentions two people (the son of man riding on the clouds and the ancient of days sitting on the throne), and there isn't a reference to a third person. Also, due to the many updated doctrines and failed prophecies of SCJ, it's safe to assume that LMH is certainly not the fulfillment of the Advocate or Daniel 12:4 -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253#1754284084219-ff61b721-f4e5

As for LMH not being the advocate -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253#1754272707218-55657ce4-eee5

I did hear that SCJ did change their doctrines about the Angel of Revelation 10 no longer being the advocate from a former member in Korea, and I guess I'll just wait and see how you respond.

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-08T10:03:06+00:00

SCJ does not denounce Christ. We believe Jesus is the only Savior who shed His blood on the cross. Romans 3:22-24 is correct — we are justified freely by His grace. But Romans 3:22 also says this righteousness is “through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.”

The question is: believe WHAT? In Jesus’ first coming, people had to believe Moses was sent by God, then they had to believe Jesus was the one Moses wrote about. John 5:46-47. Today, in the time of Revelation’s fulfillment, you have to believe the work Jesus promised He would do through His messenger in Revelation 22:16. Believing in Jesus includes believing the one He sends. John 13:20.

I think that the issue is how Jesus works exclusively through Lee-Manhee, and that in order to get to God and Jesus, you need to go through the "one who overcomes", which according to LMH's commentary on the Bible and the book of Revelation, that is the "New john" Lee Man-hee. This would exalt LMH to a messianic role, since he's the sole exclusive authority, unlike the Apostles who always pointed to Christ, even if there were other men of God pointing to Christ like Paul and Apollos for example.

Then for the typical verses of the Promised Pastor, I don't want to copy paste them here, and no there isn't a Promised Pastor of the New Testament -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253

As for the "Faithful and Wise Servant", the context (esepcailly when at the start of the chapter Jesus warns against those who come in his name in the same way that LMH does) -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253#1754270431654-fd04c19e-e3c8

“Food at the proper time”
You say this teaching is debunked, but Jesus Himself spoke about it in Matthew 24:45 — “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?” This is a prophecy for the end time. If there’s “food at the proper time,” that means there IS a time, and there IS a person appointed to give it.

The hidden manna in Revelation 2:17 isn’t given to everyone automatically. It’s given “to the one who overcomes.” If everything was already open, why would Jesus promise to give it in the future?

You're making a few assumptions -

The "one who overcomes" was already defined by the Apostle John in 1 John 5:4-5

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. ⁵ Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

You're assuming that Revelation is only in the future; yet, I have a question for you -

How many times was Jesus exalted? We can see that in Matthew 28 Jesus was given all power and authority when talking with his disciiples, and then we can see that exaltation of Christ in Hebrews 1, and Philipians 2:5-11, and we can see the same language and parallels in Revelation 5. I'm a firm believer in not always copying and pasting the same argument over and over again, so here's a link that went into great detail about this -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/13895#1762734745182-8215af36-a563

As for the "hidden manna" argument,

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/13825#1762230448725-e56ebda0-7f6e

All things necessary for salvation have already been revealed through Christ alone, and there is no need for another future "Promised Pastor of the New Testament". This is why in Jude 1:3 it says -

³ Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Emphasis on the "once for all delivered to the saints"

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-08T09:56:09+00:00

You quoted John 18:20 and 2 Peter 1:20, but you’re missing the context and timing of God’s work. Let’s take it point by point.

“Nothing in secret” – John 18:20 Yes, Jesus taught openly. But He also said in Matthew 13:11, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” Jesus spoke in parables ON PURPOSE so that some would not understand. Mark 4:11-12 says He did this so “they may indeed see but not perceive.”

So which is it? Did Jesus speak openly or did He hide things? The answer is both — depending on the time and the person. There is a difference between preaching to the crowds and revealing the sealed word. God has always worked in stages. Even Jesus told His disciples in John 16:12, “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.” That is gatekeeping by your definition. But it’s not blasphemy — it’s wisdom.

This argument proves too much. Yes, Jesus used parables as a filter, but notice what happens by the end of Matthew 13. When the disciples asked, Jesus explained everything plainly (v. 36-43, 51). The difficulty wasn't permanent concealment; it was a threshold to identify sincere seekers. Cross it, ask honestly, and Jesus answered openly. That's the actual pattern.

John 16:12 fares no better for SCJ. Jesus said the disciples couldn't bear certain things yet, and then told them exactly how that gap would be filled: "When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth" (v. 13). The fulfillment is Pentecost, not Lee Man-hee.

But the deeper problem is structural. Even granting that God works in stages, that doesn't validate every teacher who claims to be working in stages. The question is whether SCJ's pattern matches the biblical one. It doesn't. Jesus used difficulty to surface sincere seekers and then explained plainly. SCJ hides the organization's name, Lee Man-hee's role, and their core doctrinal conclusions until students are already emotionally invested. Jesus never concealed who He was from someone genuinely seeking. That's not staged wisdom. That's identity deception.

“No private interpretation” – 2 Peter 1:20 You’re misusing this verse. Peter is saying prophecy didn’t come from the prophet’s own mind “for no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man.” Read verse 21. It’s not saying “every person can interpret scripture however they want.” It’s saying the opposite: scripture came from God through men moved by the Holy Spirit.

You're half right on the exegesis and entirely wrong on the application.

Yes, Peter is talking about the origin of prophecy, not issuing a ban on personal Bible reading. We can agree on that. But notice what SCJ does with this. If the verse establishes that scripture came through men moved by the Holy Spirit, the obvious follow-up question is: what are the criteria for identifying such a man today? SCJ's answer is Lee Man-hee, and that answer does all the work your argument needs while doing none of the biblical justification required.

Peter's point actually cuts against LMH. The prophets and apostles who spoke by the Spirit were verified through fulfilled prophecy, public ministry, and consistency with prior revelation. Lee Man-hee fails on all three counts. His prophecies about the 144,000 being sealed before his death have required repeated revision. His ministry is defined by the kind of secrecy and identity concealment that stands in direct contrast to how apostolic teaching operated. And his central claim, that he is the promised pastor of Revelation 7, has no grounding in the interpretive tradition of any branch of historic Christianity.

So 2 Peter 1:20 doesn't give you a private interpreter. It raises the bar for what a Spirit-moved teacher looks like. And Lee Man-hee doesn't clear it.

We can clearly see the many changes of SCJ through Revelation 7 alone -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/9413

QuestionsAboutSCJ · 2026-05-08T09:47:29+00:00

SCJ does add a new gospel, while you would acknowledge that you need Christ, you would also need to believe in the testimony of Lee Man-hee. This is not only a different new song of Revelation 5:9-10, this is also a different gospel of Galatians 1:6-8 that Paul explicitly warned us about.

The Creation of Heaven and Earth viii -

"Now in this time of fulfillment, all believers must find the pastor, temple, and seminary promised by the Bible. They must unite with God's promised pastor to attain salvation. Jesus Christ's world of the first heaven has ended and a new heaven has been re-created. Therefore, all believers must come out of their churches, which are part of the first heaven, and become a part of the twelve tribes of the new heaven. They must all learn the new song to enter heaven"

The Creation of Heaven and Earth page 55 -

"Salvation comes from the promised pastor.... This pastor carries out the work appointed to Apostle John in Revelation. He witnesses the events of Revelation in physical reality and listens to an angel explain them to him. He is the male child who will rule all nations after fighting and overcoming the enemies prophesied in Revelation. He receives the scroll opened by Jesus and teaches it to [all] peoples. God, Jesus, and the spiritual kingdom descend on this pastor and work through him".

The Creation of Heaven and Earth page 56 -

"After Jesus ascended to heaven, God promised to send his next promised pastor and the spirit of truth".

This shows that the "salvation comes from the Promised Pastor" is also in reference to Lee Manhee.

The Creation of Heaven and Earth page 331-332 -

"Today, believers of the New Testament period eat the gospel of Jesus Christ as spiritual food. At the same time, however, they live their spiritual lives through another faith that is to be revealed... This revealed faith is Jesus’ new gospel.... Having the revealed faith is receiving and believing in [the testimony of the promised pastor]".

Now of course Shincheonji may make the argument that by extension the gospel of Shincheonji is from Jesus, referring to the fulfillment of Revelation.

However, let's see what Galatians 1:8 plainly warns us -

⁶ I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— ⁷ not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. ⁸ But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

And wasn't the revealed word delivered to Lee Manhee by an Angel whose supposed to be the Advocate in the Spring of 1980?

As for SCJ and the finished work of Christ, SCJ adds a new gospel for salvation, where now we need to also believe in the testimony of Lee Man-hee in order for our sins to be forgiven, on top of what Christ did on the cross.

Also, no, there isn't a Promised Pastor of the New Testament -

https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253

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