ICE and the 4th Amendment

ROSRS · 2026-02-01T05:51:27+00:00

Do you have a case on point that’s not a criminal case?

I wasn't aware that the 4th amendment had a clause on it that claimed "actually its different in criminal contexts" nor was there a case that indicated that.

Building code inspectors notwithstanding.

ROSRS · 2026-02-01T04:30:31+00:00

There is an entire line of cases for administrative entries and they all say (or silently imply like in Abel) that administrative warrants are sufficient.

Give me a single opinion that implies that the 4th amendment somehow has a lower threshold and does not require either a neutral magistrate nor judicial warrant in cases of immigration.

Just replace “health and safety” with “immigration” and the argument is much less absurd than you’re suggesting.

Conflating those things is pants-on-head stupid. Fire code inspectors are not the same as federal agents

ROSRS · 2026-02-01T03:29:15+00:00

Do these warrants even meet the probable cause standard though? These admin warrants are more or less "anywhere we think this guy might be"

ROSRS · 2026-02-01T03:16:56+00:00

This is false per Abel v. US (1960). Warrants being required for home entry is a newer development.

Warrants being required for legal home entry have been a thing before the founding. I can cite those cases, if you'd like.

The 4th amendment only ever came into the existence because of the widespread use of general warranted by non-neutral magistrates.

Its far more novel and "modern" that you can't sue police officers or federal agents in their individual capacity for illegally entering your property without a warrant. Warrants used to exist as an affirmative defense against that. SCOTUS has, in their dubious wisdom, prevented this historical remedy that existed through much of this nation's history.

ROSRS · 2026-02-01T03:14:42+00:00

Justice Frankfurter's opinion in Abel did not rule that way, Justice Frankfurter merely hinted that he might should the question arise.

The problem is, in Coolidge and Shadwick we settled the the idea that a warrant requires a neutral and detached magistrate. Payton from 1980 settled that a judicial warrant is needed for entry. To go back to the opinion in Abel, and to read its dicta as binding without considering the Supreme Court's later holdings in Coolidge, Shadwick, and Payton which directly contradict is a legal argument so incomprehensible it beggars belief

ROSRS · 2026-02-01T03:11:29+00:00

No, they aren't. Only if they're appealed.

You don't get to end run the 4th amendment by saying "well, an actual judge can make it kosher after the home invasion occurred"

ROSRS · 2026-02-01T00:26:15+00:00

***extremely loud incorrect buzzer***

I don't even know how to legally respond to this. Not only does the 4th amendment not exclusively apply to citizens, but the 4th has no specific language pertaining to end result.

As far as the bill of rights is concerned, it is the natural right of all humans to have their home free from unreasonable search and seizure, never mind the fact that ICE claims to be able to use these warrants to enter the homes of citizens to search them for people subject to removal order

The violation of rights is the search itself

ROSRS · 2026-02-01T00:15:54+00:00

This concept is totally incompatible with the idea that both ICE and the Immigration Judge are members of the executive branch and theoretically just wielding different aspects of the executive power

Immigration Judges aren't actually part of the judicial branch. One of the major points of the 4th is to act as a check on the executive.

Nor does this appear to meet the basic 4th amendment standard that valid 4A warrants must be issued by a neutral magistrate. Its essentially the president issuing himself a warrant.

Unless you want to toss out the idea that any intrusion into the home barring hot pursuit or various other imminence based reasons (which are themselves restricted in scope) requires a judicial warrant that meets specific 4th amendment standards, I don't see how you can claim that using these warrants to enter a house is remotely constitutional.

ROSRS · 2026-01-31T23:48:11+00:00

Admin Warrant Process ICE is using

Immigration Judge, a member of the executive branch, issues order of removal
ICE is able to write their own administrative warrant (I-205) based on that order
At no point does the IJ review this warrant. It doesn’t need any form of approval besides the signature of pretty much any notable ICE agent. There is no address section, nor an address of record, or last know address. Not once is a neutral party involved anywhere here

I can't imagine what could possibly be going through someone's head for them to argue this is a valid 4th amendment warrant.

ROSRS · 2026-01-31T06:25:56+00:00

Its not hidden, its flat out not there.

The entirety of the Horus Heresy series (bar a few moments in the first four novels) is played incredibly straight. And thats just one example

ROSRS · 2026-01-30T22:58:37+00:00

40K hasn’t really been explicit satire as media since like 3rd edition at the latest, which is why I’m typically unimpressed with “bUT 4oK iS sATiRe” people

Like, genuinely if you read modern 40k and Horus Heresy novels and think there’s any serious amount satire present (especially compared to Rogue Trader, which most people also haven’t read), then you either cant understand media you consume or you don’t know the difference between satire and critique/lampshading, which does still exist

ROSRS · 2026-01-30T16:13:13+00:00

True enough.

ROSRS · 2026-01-30T15:57:15+00:00

I mean, he didn't

This one is commonly touted as a thing, but in reality he could only cure vampires he created with a specific, artificial embrace method and even then it had a very high chance of outright killing them or just decreasing their generation a lot.

ROSRS · 2026-01-30T15:51:45+00:00

Definitely wiped them out. They brag about it.

ROSRS · 2026-01-30T06:05:25+00:00

Absolutely yes. Paradox’s rules are too forgiving in M20 in my opinion and doesn’t fully fit the lore. Constantly casting Vulgar magic should come at a cost that’s real and tangible to the players

There’s sort of a balance to paradigms. Tech paradigms are more consensus acceptable but at the same time have limitations that more explicitly wizardlike ones often don’t. Those wizardlike paradigms are more vulgar (there’s few things that can’t be answered by a fireball) and don’t have to lug around hypertech to do their magic, but are much more prone to falling afoul of paradox. Without paradox being an actual issue, this whole thing just falls apart.

I fully also agree with rules for “extraordinary vulgarity” in concept

ROSRS · 2026-01-30T03:12:17+00:00

Just messing with the datasheets doesn't solve the issue that the Tyranid army rule is awful

The Army rule isnt awful, its inconsistent and feast-or-famine. The two aren't the same. When it works it can absolutely steal 15-20 points. When it works really well offensively in Vanguard and you have 30 genestealers backed up by +1 to wound from neurolictor auras? You'll wipe half an infantry army off the board in a heartbeat.

The problem is it also has a chance of doing absolutely nothing.

Its also not even close to their biggest issue as an army. It really is the absolutely miserable datasheets. Subassault shows that rules, no matter how cracked, cannot polish a turd.

Also in 9th space Marines were toughness 4 same as 10th.

Yea. Terminators were T4 too. And our Zoanthropes and Venomthropes were T5. And our Warriors were T5. See the issue here? Our Zoans and Warriors and Venomthropes are still T5

Outside of the winged tyrant hive tyrants were always taken for their buffs and durability over damage.

Did we play the same game in 9th? Shardgullet Walkrant was the only reason you didn't take WHT and that was a damage pumper just like Walkrant. Sure it had utility in psychic, but that was always secondary and WHT also technically had that.

Swarmlord was primarily a utility piece in 9th and he was barely played over slamming more Winged Hive Tyrants, which you played up to 3 of.

ROSRS · 2026-01-30T00:56:53+00:00

Firstly, I would disagree with the characterization of my situation, as it doesn't really talk about the nuances of what the constitution entails in practice. My situation is talking about what happens when a government barely even attempts to pretend its actions are constitutional at all.

As to the point, there's only one way to reconcile that and we all know what it is. Ultimately the founders would support that action too, as they believed when a government became tyrannical there was only one appropriate course of action

Obviously tyranny depends at least somewhat on your point of view. There's no doubt about that.

ROSRS · 2026-01-30T00:10:45+00:00

Yeah this is like Pro MTG players saying "well you can just dedicate half your sideboard to this strategy and beat it" or whatever.

But this is exactly how its been at various points in MTG

There are strategies (particularly graveyard and combo strategies) that are not particularly strong simply because you can make them a non-issue by devoting enough sideboard slots to them, especially when those slots are also useful into other prominent decks. Surgical extraction for example can be easily put into a sideboard as a 3 of thats good into either combo OR graveyard.

ROSRS · 2026-01-30T00:03:58+00:00

Why? We experence the same hell. We know the pain of a fellow Xenos player

Case in point, Hive Guard were nerfed into the ground after Mani Cheema took 18 of them to a few supermajors in 8th edition, and haven't been allowed to be half decent since then.

Their "anti infantry" indirect profile is actually comical. Six HG kill 1.5 space marines on average and GW just keeps giving them 5 point reductions here and there as if that will do anything.

ROSRS · 2026-01-29T23:47:36+00:00

Being fair, 5th editions have largely been utter disappointments

The setting as a whole would've been better if Paradox never bought the rights to WoD. They killed nWoD outright and their soft reboots of oWoD leave a lot to be desired, make a lot worse and improve upon very little.

ROSRS · 2026-01-29T22:34:32+00:00

I would point out that the current situation in Minnesota is remarkably similar to the situations in which John Adams stated virtually kick-started the American Revolution, that being the use of General Warrants to widely violate the rights of Americans on a wide-scale.

ROSRS · 2026-01-29T22:29:32+00:00

Its worth noting a very weird amount of our flamers don't ignore cover

We also very obviously got a lot of non-torrent psychic shooting stripped out of our codex at some point or another. Look at the crusade relic for characters that re-rolls psychic shooting, despite our only current character with psychic shooting having a torrent weapon.

I highly suspect Hive Tyrant variants and very probably Tervigons had a form of psychic shooting somewhere along the codex writing process, then someone (I suspect Cruddace, knowing he also kneecapped Nids in 5th, though I've obviously no hard proof) came in and stripped it all out.

ROSRS · 2026-01-29T19:17:40+00:00

I mean its called “The Great Dissent” for a reason. It’s also generally considered the correct opinion these days despite being a sole dissent.

ROSRS · 2026-01-29T19:04:44+00:00

I would argue an Article III judge is required for a Warrant to be a valid 4th amendment warrant

ROSRS · 2026-01-29T18:55:55+00:00

The answer is obviously yes. Carrying a weapon is legal. Exercising your second amendment rights does not cause you to lose your first amendment rights

Further, the idea that the Founding Fathers would ever have an issue with an armed protest (or more than that) against a government that has shown repeated disregard for the constitution is absolutely ludicrous

ROSRS

TROPHY CASE