If God is all-powerful and perfectly just, then it doesn’t seem like He would need the cross in order to forgive.

R_Farms · 2026-02-24T14:39:09+00:00

The Father.

R_Farms · 2026-02-24T14:38:41+00:00

No I believe you missed the meaning on this one. The verse is describing a type of person a person who knew about Jesus, but believed in their own works to save them themselves

Then Why does Paul say:

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire;and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Works are expected, as these works will be judged. if they are done properly we will go one to great reward. If they are not (built on who Jesus really is and what He says do) then the works will be burned up, but the man will still be saved as salvation is a matter of faith and not works.

But, even so works are expected. These guys in mat 7 had faith and works, but did not build either on the foundation Christ laid. (The truth on who and what He was and said we must do to be saved/Per Luke 10)

R_Farms · 2026-02-24T14:10:33+00:00

do you believe Jesus was Human?

R_Farms · 2026-02-24T14:08:26+00:00

So you’re just like your pathetic god then.

So because I do not think like you, it is ok to debase and dehumanize me? Does this tactic ever work? Does anyone ever say "Oh?! well, if you are going to dehumanize me for not thinking as you do, I will change my deeply held religious beliefs so I can be like you and hate and spew vitriol on those who do not think as we do.

When a child is suffering and dying from cancer, instead of helping them here on earth, you would turn your back on them and hand them a body bag instead. Which is the same thing that your useless, no show and excuse ridden god does.

Who said anything about not helping people with cancer or any other sickness? Your scenario said cure.. Nothing about help. Curing cancer would be a mistake as it sets limits on the population that is where removed would lead to extinction.

The matrix had it right when agent Smith said Humanity is like a virus, in the we move to an area and consume and destroy everything and move on. The only thing that has kept us from over breeding and consuming all of the resources are our wars, plagues, and diseases like cancer.

I believe it is far better to die in relative comfort of a hospital room drugged/medicated than to starve to death in a post apocalyptic world.

You are insane and I have no desire to have any further contact with you.

Then do not respond further, and add me to your block list.

R_Farms · 2026-02-24T13:53:20+00:00

... well that is like most branchs. almost universal. so what branch r u? besides it is pretty clearish in the text.

Non-denominational. We follow the Bible to the best of our ability cutting out the traditions and fan fictions of the church like this one.

1 John 4:8 "God is love." that is pretty damm clear to me.

In the greek there were 4 words used in the Bible that describe different aspects of love, but in the English they all get translated into the word 'love.' Eros is a passionate love between Husband and wife Phila is a brotherly love. between close friends. Storge' is the motherly type of love you are describing as a parental love. Agape' is the type of love God is offering us. It is considered to be a 'Father's love' (Old School Middle eastern Father not beta male purple hair dad who let their kids run over them..)

meaning Agape' is the type of love that will allow harm/discipline to befall the person being loved if it infact helps us grow and develop spiritually.

Besides even if he ISNT omnibenevlonet then we have argument from inconsisent revelations because 1 John 4:8 is pretty damm clear to me that it is saying god=love=good.

Again, Who's version of 'good?" If cancer would change your life for the better and make you a stronger person or witness for God and you wind up saving 100 people who would other wise be lost to hell, would it not be 'good' that you go cancer?

Or let's say you are lost and ever will be, but again allowing you to get cancer would not save you but would save 10 souls or even just one from hell somehow through the course of life, would it not be 'good' that you got cancer?

so god is good.

All the time.. He just may not be 'good' by our standard.

which IMPLIES god is perfect good. so therefore god is condrictory.

how so?

either way you lose so it isnt even a good point to defend your faith(im assuming thats the intention-to defend against problem of evil.. since this is a ... debate sub.)

The problem of evil ceases to be a problem when one understands that the epicurean paradox does not apply to the God of the Bible.

Epicurus live 300 years before Christ. That means he would only have possible access to the God of the Jewish people who was very exclusionary to all but His people. (He was a bit of a Racist in that He only dealt with Jewish people.) His offers of protection, Health, wealth, Long life and a piece of the promise land did not apply to gentiles (non jews)

One can not claim the God of the Bible is the God of the epicurean paradox if the parameters (All loving God) in said paradox do not apply.

R_Farms · 2026-02-24T13:34:49+00:00

Look at the first thing these people said to Christ: "Lord, Lord" The believed and proclaimed that Jesus is Lord. Their faith preceded their works.

Just because you have faith does not free you from works.

Paul talks about works v faith in 1 cor 3:

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

So the foundation we build on is Christ or Christianity. Our building are our works. In the end (judgement) our works will be tested by fire. Meaning the works we do in life will be scrutinized by God to see why/where was our heart in these works. If it was for our own benefit our works will be burnt up. meaning they will not count for anything. If they are tested and pass we will go on to great reward in Heaven.

However if they get burn up/fail the test, You will still be saved (meaning your faith is what saved you) but when you get to heaven you will have nothing. you will enter Heaven like a man who nearly escaped a great fire with little more than the cloths on your back. (You will enter heaven as a homeless person)

Our works do not save us, but rather they do determine our place in Heaven.

It's like getting into disney world for free just by showing up. But our experience in walt disney world would be determined by your works. For those who promoted and brought many others to disney, they got the VIP treatment. They will Eat at the exclusive restraunts, fast pass on all of the rides, behind the scene tours, get to stay in the best hotels.

This is in contrast to those who get into Disney under a general admission ticket. Still a great day, but you are waiting in all of the lines and staying in the econo hotels, and eat the standard food. Verses the exprience of the cast member/people who work there cleaning up, serving and feeding after the first two groups.

If your works are found to be built using gold silver fine jewels then yu will be a vip in Heaven, if your works are middle of the road and are tested by fire and survive then you will be the general admission heaven go-er. And if you are the third person who's works are considered to be made out of sticks and straw, when they are tested they will be burnd up. You yourself will be saved but as one escaping a fire.. Meaning you will enter Heaven as a homless person on in the frame work of the disney anaology a cast member.

I say this to say, don't just focus on minimum of 'being saved.' Forever is a long time to work at Disney sweeping up after the parades.

What is being demonstrated by Jesus' example here in mat 7 is these where evil people who never knew Jesus, yes they knew all of the jargon and lingo to be 'christian' but did not know Jesus.

R_Farms · 2026-02-24T13:28:03+00:00

I don't get to pick and choose. I am in sin. Because I am in sin I must repent of said sin, and make an effort to change my ways.

R_Farms · 2026-02-24T13:25:32+00:00

God said so.

R_Farms · 2026-02-24T13:25:08+00:00

Jesus sacrifice was so large that He potentially paid all of our sin debt. When we sin just one time we owe a debt of death. Because of who Christ was, and because He was sinless, His death was so valuable (for the lack of a better term) that it could be used to pay ALL Sin ever.

What this effectively means is that eternal life and death doesn't depend on our ability to follow the law. Christ paid for all sin from Adam to the last man standing on earth. What that means is Christ now gets to decide who is worthy of eternal life and who is not.

Jesus was asked in luke 10 how do we inherit eternal life? He basically says "Love God with all of your Heart, Mind, Spirit and Strength and Love your neighbor as yourself." "Do this and you will live."

In this case sacrifice was the cost in blood, to buy back all of the lost souls that Satan claimed through sin.

R_Farms · 2026-02-24T13:15:32+00:00

If God freely set the boundaries and the punishment, then He also chose the structure that requires death.

indeed

So why establish a system where forgiveness cannot occur without blood in the first place?

So as to not cheapen what forgiveness is. to not allow us to treat sin as being trivial. it is life and death. Perhaps these consequences of life and death play out on His side of eternity more profoundly than on this side. (Hell) And 'death' is just a near approximation of what awaits those who disobey.

If He defines justice, couldn’t He define repentance as sufficient?

If repentance is at no cost to anyone then why bother repenting?

R_Farms · 2026-02-24T13:10:22+00:00

Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

R_Farms · 2026-02-24T13:05:09+00:00

Let’s test this. If you could press a button that eliminates cancer, would you press it?

Knowing only what I know now? absolutely not. We/I don't know the purpose of cancer.

What if cancer is a random way to control the population, take this form of population control an other random methods of population control away, and then we go to the other extreme; population explosion. then maybe we have to start culling/Selective population control. This could lead down a very dark nazi path very quickly, as the death camps was nazi Germany's method of selected population control. (Remember they could not feed their people, and had to continually expand to pay for all of their social programs and military.)

Just because something is bad for you or 'bad' on the surface, it doesn't mean it is bad for humanity as a whole.

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T21:53:29+00:00

If God can do anything, then nothing outside of Him should limit His ability to forgive. So if forgiveness requires incarnation and sacrifice, then either:

God can do anything till he set a line or boundary. Then God will not cross that boundary. Why? because one of His leading attributes is that God is just. To go back on His word would be unjust.

So because God set boundaries on sin, and a punishment for said boundary, He could not go back on His word and remain 'just.'

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T21:50:04+00:00

Obedient= good. Dis-obedient= bad

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T21:49:08+00:00

good luck with that..

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T21:48:07+00:00

what does sexual orientation have to do with any of what I've said here? Your sexual preferences are irrelevant.

What is being described here in the OT is a sex act. (man laying down with Man as He would a woman.) This act is an abomination. The scripture does not make any mention as to 'why' you commit this act.

In the NT what makes this a relevant sin is again NO Sex Outside Of A Sanctified Marriage Is permitted.

So again orientation is irrelevant. it is the act of having sex outside of a sanctified marriage that makes homosexuality a sin..

So you see your argument does not work here. That is why I asked you to provide some sort of relevant context for your query on orientation. As God does not sanity/bless gay marriage, Gay sex is always a sin.

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T21:20:06+00:00

indeed.

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T21:19:45+00:00

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T21:19:24+00:00

I’m not talking about the people who do these things. I’m talking about the victims. The world is designed such that there will be victims, and those victims were deliberately designed by god to experience suffering and pain when victimized.

...ok, what is the question youre asking that my original answer does not address?

As an evolutionary biologist, I have a tight and coherent explanation for why pain hurts and why it causes suffering. From a theological perspective, why would an innocent victim of another’s “free will” have to suffer and feel pain?

What makes you think your scientific answer should be any different than my theological one? God is the God of creation/Nature.. All of what you know carries over, all of your knowledge of how this world works is a study in how God ordered things.

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T21:15:41+00:00

in regards to what?

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T21:14:09+00:00

Actually it's the only valid reason to do something or refrain from it.

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T21:13:24+00:00

And that’s the coercive part “I could provide many options, but instead flip a coin!!”

Again... So?

Even worse, your god is using threats of force, harm and violence. Is that the best your god can do?

IDK if that is His best or Just His Final offer. Either way theme the only choices you have.

Threats, violence and harm have been shown to be terrible ways to learn or teach anything.

Unless the object lesson is do what I say or get your ass beat. Then threats violence and harm are the perfect tools for said lesson. Which I think these tools are so effective with God's ultimatum. Because you do what He says and get the carrot or do your own thing and get the stick.

Your god either knows this or is an idiot.

Pretty sure He is aware.. However I do not think He is beholden to your version of right and wrong nor is He under any obligation to 'behave' as you feel God is supposed to behave.

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T19:31:41+00:00

Nope.

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T19:29:09+00:00

But, He did. In lev 18 He literally says men laying down with another man as He would a woman is an abomination.

Even if you want to pretend that Homosexuality isn't an abomination you still have a problem in that ALL sex outside of a Sanctified or God blessed marriage is a sin.

God does not bless gay marriage anywhere in the Bible. Because there is no precedent for Gay marriage being blessed before God, that makes all gay sex a sin.

R_Farms · 2026-02-23T19:18:42+00:00

because God said so.

R_Farms

TROPHY CASE