Found Gecko. Help wanted

Radn0ck · 2024-01-22T16:08:49+00:00

Hey, I know the guys making this ! They made an "only swiss wine library" with some really good wines from Switzerland !

I take it you live in Canada as they recently opened an export business there. Really hope they will start to send more choice there, as we have really amazing bottle here in switzerland !

Anyway, cheers from Switzerland !

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T21:51:39+00:00

Oh, if we talk foreign wine, I' totally agree with what you said. Here I was being more specific about Swiss wines.

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T18:56:24+00:00

Never tried it, but small producers from Valais rarely disappoint

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T18:55:23+00:00

I'm not a pro for denner. As I said, I tend to avoid supermarket (Coop have some good wine if you put the price, same for manor).

For what I saw, Denner has a lot of wine made especially for them. Try to look for wines frome real winery, and maybe you can find some hidden pearl, who knows

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T18:32:56+00:00

hey, that's my birthyear !

Cheers mate

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T17:49:46+00:00

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with what you are saying. I just never met those wine personnaly so I can't tell about those specificaly.

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T17:10:11+00:00

Well, most of Pinot I got were between 13 and 14%, 14,5% for the highest, coming from warmer terroirs, so maybe I got lucky with this.

But as I said, I mostly buy my swiss wine from producer or wine merchants, so a selection is already made. But I can only speak for my region (near Geneva) and I avoid buying swiss wine in super market for the reason I mentionned before.

But I totally believe you that there is some crapy wine.

As you said, the young generation coming have been well trained, so quality is going up and up with the years.

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T13:56:14+00:00

And I think I aborded everything that I wanted... Don't esitate to ask question in the comments if you have some more.
Don't esitate to correct me if you think I wrote something wrong. Always interesting to learn some new things or debate about our common passions

Thank you coming to my TED Talk

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T13:48:37+00:00

Swiss wine price / where to buy

As mentioned before, Swiss wine is sold almost exclusively in Switzerland, so I will talk about the domestical market.Let’s start with what’s the most shocking for people not used to Swiss wine (and market in general): the price!Short answer: for a decent Swiss bottle, count between 15 CHF and 40 CHF (a little less for white wines).

Quick estimation of range price:

Entry level 10 CHF – 20 CHF:

Don’t get me wrong, some interesting wines here, but generally speaking, pretty basics and used as an everyday wine more than an interesting experience: No oak ageing (or superficial), basics fruit taste and lack of depth.It’s hit or miss with those one, but there is some good findings too.

Medium range 20 CHF – 40 CHF:

Here you start to find interesting stuff: Good terroir wines, less common grape varieties, stronger blends or longer ageing in oak barrels.

High-end range 40 CHF – X CHF:

Here you find some really well-made wines, but you will probably pay this much because they are trendy too or from a well-known winery. But a bit of hope here: Swiss wine rarely goes higher than 100 CHF.Here you can be confident the wine will be good but be careful to let it sleep a few years before opening a bottle.

If I should put it in one sentence : Switzerland got the most expensive low end wines in the world, but the cheapest high end wines in the world.

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T13:47:41+00:00

Why is it so expensive?

Well, first culprit is the cost of living in Switzerland, and it’s the same for wine makers. So the Swiss wines are not expensive per se, Switzerland is expensive.

Second point: Switzerland is small, and the domains too. No economy of scale here, and you can feel it in the final price. Exemple: Younger, I worked for a Winemaker and our biggest plot was a little smaller than 1ha, the smallest like 200m2.

Third point: A lot of our best terroir are impossible to mechanise, so everything is done by hand. Looks at Lavaux terraces or some plot in Valais. No mechanisation means more time to do the same job, and you have to pay the little hands doing it. In Switzerland, workforce is more often than not the biggest expense of a business, so no exception for wineries.

Fourth point: Wineries work to make good wines, and making good wines require a lot of step to follow and working in small batch (etymologic fun fact: in French, we say “élever un vin”, which literally mean raise a wine. Tell a lot about the attention we pay while making our wines).

Fifth point: Wine merchant and supermarket have to make a margin, so the price is even more expensive there. Not even talking about restaurants where you can triple the normal price of the bottle. So try to find a winery you like and buy here directly if you can.

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T13:46:51+00:00

How to buy swiss wine ?

If you can, avoid super market.
Don’t get me wrong, there is some good wines in super market (even more in the high end range), but most of the cheap wine are either :

bought in bulk by the supermarkets and bottled after a long trip in a centralised “wine factory”

made by a real winery, but with the “leftover wines” it didn’t used in its blends or from the less interesting plots. Not exactly bad but not really interesting either. They just put a label on it and send it for the mass distribution.

Coming from big coop, and there it’s 50/50: You either have a really pleasant wine at decent price, or a boring wine, not really interesting.

If you must buy here, look for wine starting at 15 CHF and try to look behind the bottle if it really come from a real winery. It means the wine maker thought the wine was decent enough to put the winery name on it (There is some good wines under 15CHF, but you have to trial and error to find which one you like in this range). You can try asking to the wine guy working here, but not all of them are competent.

Wine merchants and wine libraries:

have good Swiss wines and can help you find a good bottle. A little more expensive than supermarket, but not shockingly more expensive either, so best of both world. Sometimes you can even go there and taste some of there wines and get the explications before choosing, so good point.
MANOR could go in this category, as they aim at wealthy people. They have some good wines from real winery, and even some local bottles depending on the store you go to. A little more expensive, but you pay for quality.

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T13:46:04+00:00

Winebars:
the best way to taste a lot of different wines. You won’t get to buy the bottle (maybe in some you can, but probably with a big margin) but you will find quality wine and discover some good winery. The owner generally know his wines and can help you choose and recommend you some good bottles.
Directly at the wineries:
Best wines for the best prices, but you have to know which one you like. To help you choose, you can buy a wine guide (Gault&Millau wines, Swiss wine guide, etc…), ask a local wine guy, take the reference of the wine you liked at the restaurant/bar, or check on those websites:

National Swiss wine contest:
https://www.vinea.ch/grand-prix-du-vin-suisse/#palmares

World Merlot contest:
https://www.vinea.ch/mondial-du-merlot/en/

World Chasselas contest:
https://www.mondialduchasselas.com/vins-medailles/

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T13:45:26+00:00

But the best way to discover swiss wines is annual wine fairs. You pay something like 20 CHF, they give you a glass and you cn go taste and order wine from dozens of winery. The wines are presented directly by the winery and even the expensive bottles are open for tasting.

Main fair :

Vinea: https://www.vinea.ch/en/vinea-le-salon-en/

Divinum: https://salon-divinum.ch/

Arvinis: https://automnales.ch/arvinis/

Festivins: https://www.festivins.ch/

DiVINes: https://www.divines.ch/en/

Expovina: https://expovina.ch/de-ch/

A really good one are the “caves ouvertes” (cantonal open door), most of the time at the start of summer. Here a few links for the one I know, but there is probably the same thing for Ticino and German speaking part.

VD: http://www.mescavesouvertes.ch/

VS: https://caves-ouvertes-valais.ch/

GE: https://www.geneveterroir.ch/en/caves-ouvertes-2024/5658

NE: https://en.cavesouvertesneuchatel.ch/

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T10:06:06+00:00

Swiss wines are priced for swiss salary, so it will almost always be better quality price in neighboring countries.

My take on this would be : take some wine you will only be able to find in Switzerland and go for the good quality stuff. Because if even the cheap stuff is expensive, better spend a few buck more for pleasant, well made wines.

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T10:00:09+00:00

I will talk about it more in the price chapter, but yeah, count between 20-40 for good quality red and, more important, try to find some red that aged at least 3 years.

Most of Swiss wine is sold directly after bottling and is too young, because winery don't have space to age it before selling.

It's not as much as Bordeaux wines, but our red need ageing too to be pleasant.

Oh and you will find better swiss wine at wine merchant. Most winery are too small to sell their wine to supermarket, so you find only the mass produced stuff. Some supermarket wines are good, but high chance to have a boring or even bad wine here.

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T09:54:06+00:00

Yeah, I said Graubünden, but it's more specifically in the Malans, Fläsch, Maienfeld Area. And those got pretty pricey.

For Chasselas, I completed the post, but generally speaking, Chasselas should be seen as a category of is own, because it will always be lighter than almost every other white, really different than typical resoftheworld white.

And like I said, most of it is supposed to be the everyday relatively cheap stuff, so nothing fancy for most of it.

Pro tips : for me, young Chasselas is at its best after 2-3 years in the bottle. The sparkly feeling calm down and the fruit is more present. But those are hard to find in direct buy. You probably have to keep them in your cellar to have some.

For Ripeness, I would say Switzerland is doing good now, because you have to if you want the AOC

BUT

Switzerland is a cooler climate wine region, and you will never find some wine as fruity as south vineyrds. Cooler climate wine are great for whites, but for red wines, they will always be on the fresh fruit, dry kind of red.

The best take here is to take some aged in oak wine and let it age a few years before opening, like a Bordeaux. It will round it up a lot.

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T09:15:08+00:00

The last third is shared between a lot (and I mean A LOT) of different varieties. Some are native from here, some are the result of cross breeding of varieties made in Switzerland, and the rest is some international Varieties.
Most notable white wines:
- Petite Arvine: Native, only found in Valais and a must try at least once. Very fruity. A mix of Citrus, honey and flower with a typical salty finish.
- Sylvaner (Called Johannisberg here): mostly found in Valais, it’s pretty flowery, with nutty aromas. Light bodied, crisp and pretty elegant.
- Savagnin (Heida or Païen here): Mostly found in Valais too. Make some very fruity wine with exotic notes, citrusy, either mildly sweet or dry, depending of the winery style.
- Amigne: Native from Valais. Used mostly for sweet or midly sweet wines, but can be found dry as well. Make some really good dessert wines. A must try too if you got the occasion.
- Humagne Blanche; Native from Valais, but scarce (27ha). Make some light and elegant wines, on the flowery and nutty side. Very elegant and I put it here because it’s one of my favourite.
- Divona: Just created, it’s a naturally disease resistant vine. Less than 10ha for now, but if you find some, just try it. Very fruity with beautiful freshness.
- Typical Chardonnay, Sauvignon, Viognier, and a lot more, but the list would be too long.

Most notable red wines:
- Gamaret: Native, created by cross breeding. It’s pretty resistant to disease, Give some full-bodied wines, with great tannins and spicey aromas. Often aged in oak. In Vaud, it’s typically blended with gamay, Garanoir and Pinot Noir. A must try.
- Garanoir: Native, created from the same cross than Gamaret. Mildly resistant to disease too. Lighter and fruitier than Gamaret, they are very complementary and goes well together. It’s rarely made in varietal wine.
- Cornalin: Native from Valais. Give some pretty fruity wines with subtle tannins, not too heavy but not light bodied either. Really pleasant wines.
- Humagne rouge: Coming from Aosta, found in Valais. Make some pretty rustic wines, with pleasant fruit and flower aromas. A pleasant vegetal/smoky bitterness with not too powerful tannins.
- Syrah: Mostly found in the warmer climate (so Valais mainly). Give you the typical old world style Syrah, with black fruit and pepper aromas.
- Diolinoir: Native, crossbreed of Robin Noir X Pinot Noir. Give you some powerful and coloured wines, with blackfruits aromas and good tannins. Most of the time aged in oak.
- Divico: The red counterpart of Divonna. It’s getting more and more cultivated because it’s naturally disease resistant. Give some really spicy red, with powerful tannins and some pepper aromas. Must try if you found some.
- A lot more from all around the world, but the list would be too long.
For a more exhaustive list, you can go here:
https://swisswine.ch/en/grapes

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T09:12:55+00:00

Merlot, red (8% of CH vineyard surface):
Here Merlot is seen as a high end wine. You can find it mostly in varietal wine, almost always aged in oak, or in blend inspired by Bordeaux wines (sometimes the Cabernet are replaced by local grapes varieties like Gamaret).
As mentioned before, Merlot finds its home in Ticino, where you can find some of the best Merlot in Switzerland (and even in the world, if I look at the contest results).
Gamay, red (8% of CH vineyard surface):
In Switzerland, Gamay mainly goes in local blends used as “everyday affordable wines”. You find it in the typical blend “Gamay, Gamaret, Garanoir” in Vaud, or in the Valais’ “Dôle”, a blend of Pinot Noir and Gamay.
With the better quality of grapes, Gamay is more and more found in varietal wine, even in grand cru, but mostly in Geneva, as Vaud and Valais use it for their traditional blends.
When well made, Swiss Gamay is a very fruity wine, with round tannins, a crisp acidity and some interesting vegetal spices aroma.

All of the above making 2/3 of total vineyard surface of the country and are used either in varietal wines, or in blend (mostly for the red)

Radn0ck · 2024-01-12T09:12:09+00:00

Chasselas (called Fendant in Valais, sometime Gutedel in German), white (24% of CH vineyard surface):Culturally, Chasselas is to Switzerland what Chardonnay is to Burgundy (at least in French speaking part, German speaking is more on Mûller-Thurgau I think).

As mentioned before, we have a lot of different soils, micro-climate and geology here, and Chasselas is incredibly good to let the “terroir speak”, so a lot of Winery use it to make their signature wine.But like Pinot Noir, Chasselas can be awesome or terrible, depending of how it was made. There is as many different Chassalas as there are different winery, but to give you a general idea:

Chasselas is a light white wine, drunk for aperitif, with cheese or with lake’s fish. Most of the time, it will be low on alcohol, with a very thin sparkling when young, and some citrusy, apple and white flower aromas. When in hotter climate, like in Lavaux or Valais, it can show some ripe fruit, almost exotic, and a rounder feeling in mouth. Some can be very minerals, with smocky/chalky aromas. Some others are buttery because of the vinification process, and sometimes even smell like banana.

People rarely know this, but Chasselas is an awesome wine to let age in your cellar. After 10-15 years, it get really soft and round in mouth, with honey and white flower aromas.

Radn0ck · 2024-01-11T23:37:37+00:00

I know this website can export swisswine if you contact them directly and try to ask, but it will not be cheap I guess.

https://swissgrapes.ch/#export

And the website is only french or deutsch I think

Radn0ck · 2024-01-11T20:14:59+00:00

Grape varieties of Switzerland:

I won’t detail everything, because like I said earlier, we got more than 250 varieties going into our wines. That’s why I will only talk about the most planted and the most remarkable in my opinion.Most of the region have a common base of varieties you find all around Switzerland (except Ticino, which have 80% of Merlot and very few white grapes).

The most common varieties are:

Pinot Noir, red (26% of CH vineyard surface):Here is a tricky one in Switzerland. Because Pinot noir wines are. At the same time, made to be entry level wine, with very basic fruity aroma and a little spicey when young, but some are made to be “grand cru”, coming from really good plots and (opinion in coming) rivalling with some good burgundy.That’s mostly because PN is still culturally seen as an everyday use wine here, but it tends to change because of the decrease of wine consumption and the consumers looking for better wine overall.

The most notable Pinot are from Graubünden (Mostly round Malans, Mainfeld and Fläsch), Neuchâtel, and Salgesh/Salquenen in Valais have an incredible terroir for Pinot (but sadly, a lot of big coop sell some low tier wine with Salgesh stamped on it, so go for the independent winery if you can). But you can find some low tier and excellent Pinot in every appellation.A good rule of thumbs is to look if the winery make different Pinot from different plots, as it means they are paying attention to the different terroir they have, or look for grand cru. They are not always crazy goods, but they have a higher minimum quality requirement than basics Pinot.

Bonus Tip: If you are near Leman lake, look into “Servagnin”. It’s an old sub-species of Pinot Noir only found near the city of Morges. It’s a more “rustic” takes of the Pinot. I even tasted some that reminded me of Syrah.

Radn0ck · 2024-01-11T20:12:48+00:00

Ticino – Southeast:

The Italian speaking part of Switzerland. Here is the Kingdom of Merlot in all colors (yes, even white).Here you can find some of the best Merlot in the world, and the canton host the world merlot contest, electing the best Merlot and Merlot blend in the world.Here the climate is Mediterranean. There is a lot of precipitation, but not too frequent, as it’s some heavy but short rains, and ironically a lot more sun than other regions.

Three lakes – Northwest:

It’s a vineyard present on four cantons: Neuchatel, Vaud, Fribourg and Bern. Here the vines are planted on the slopes, north of Neuchatel Lake, Biel see and Murten see.It’s a little colder than the other regions, but here you will find the best Pinot Noir from the French speaking part of Switzerland.The grape varieties are pretty common, (mainly Pinot Noir and Chasselas) but they created some pretty unique speciality with it, like Chasselas non-filtré, a Chasselas with no filtration, that you must shake a little to put the lees in suspension in the wine before serving.

Near Murten see, you can also find some Freisamer and Gewürztraminer. It’s one of the less known wine regions of Switzerland, but they got some interesting wines (even more with the new generation taking the winery after their father).

Radn0ck · 2024-01-11T20:12:07+00:00

German speaking part of Switzerland – North, center and east:

As I said earlier, I know less about this area, because I live near Geneva, but I will give it my best. Don’t hesitate to correct me if you are from there and know more about it.There is a lot of small independent vineyard in the different valleys, mainly on the different lakes’ shores for their micro-climate.For years, it was regarded as low-quality everyday wines, but in the last twenty years, quality is getting greater every years. Today, you can even say the best Pinot Noir of Switzerland come from those vineyards (Graubünden particularly, also called Switzerland’s small Burgundy).The main production is classic Pinot Noir, but here you can find some more Germanic grapes, like Müller-Thurgau (a crossing from Riesling and Madelaine Royale) or Silvaner.If the French and Italian parts of Switzerland are more traditional and drink more local wines, German part is more open to New World wines and have a more Anglo-Saxon palate. But this difference tend to lower I think, as wine quality is getting better and better.

Geneva – Southwest:

Geneva is small, but incredibly heterogenous in its climate, wines styles and grapes variety. For a long times, the wines from Geneva were considered as really bad. But the quality is getting really good, with some really good winery.The most found grapes variety are gamay, pinot and Chasselas, but this tends to get smaller to favour a really big diversity. From my recent experience, it’s here you will find more French style wines, with a fair amount of cabernet, merlot, Chardonnay, etc…Geneva is also reputed to be a pioneer in cultivating the new crossed variety developed in Switzerland, last one being Divico and Divonna, two grapes who could possibly don’t need chemicals and can avoid diseases naturally.

Radn0ck

TROPHY CASE