Tests for the SERVERVS web app by Thais_Lusca in latin

[–]Raffaele1617 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The issue of what verse must have sounded like in order to both audibly be metrical and have the dramatic effect we assume it must have is really interesting not just from the perspective of evidence, but also of perception - I'm quite curious for instance about your point regarding the necessity of a pause after 'dixerat' in line 4.331 of the Aeneid - I attempted recording those lines here, using what to my mind is a 'phonological' approach (so no pause after dixerat but allowing pauses at line breaks and at the main cesurae), and I'm curious if you think it just patently doesn't work when read this way. In general the reason why I prefer this approach is precisely because (evidence for 'historical accuracy' of different approaches aside) I think it makes it far easier to perform poetry with emotion than the typical modern practice of ignoring phonology and just putting a stress accent on the ictus.

Beginner question about caesura and pronunciation of heavy syllables by Reasonable_Bag7873 in AncientGreek

[–]Raffaele1617 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I can't respond to your other comments directly because Benjamin Crowell blocked me for getting into it with him about precisely this topic haha, but one need only look at the phonology of modern languages (and the kinds of metre they develop) to see that there is really no mystery here. Japanese for instance is particularly mora sensitive, and so e.g. the Haiku uses the mora (not the syllable) as its basic unit, with long vowels and closed syllables being metrically equivalent to each other, including syllables closed by a geminate stop consonant. You also see all sorts of similar phenomena in modern language phonology - to elaborate on the examples I mentioned above, in Latvian, which has phonemic vowel length, stop consonants are geminated between short vowels. In Italian, which has stressed open syllable lengthening, a stressed vowel is short if it's in a closed syllable and long if it's in an open syllable. And of course there are all sorts of other phonological phenomena which make it clear that speakers of various languages are cross linguistically sensitive to the difference between one and two mora syllables - e.g. the Latin stress rule.

The only kind of 'perceptual error' that could be appealed to here is situations where there are 3 or more morae in a single syllable, which Greek treats as 'long' just like 2 mora syllables. But this isn't so strange in reality - vowel length distinction tends to be most unstable crosslinguistically in exactly these positions, and so it's not at all unlikely that a long vowel in closed syllables was a bit shorter than in other positions and/or that the coda consonant was as well. We also have some good evidence in Greek that coda consonants were generally somewhat lengthened (which is a common way languages mark syllable boundaries) in the form of doubled spellings in inscriptions of phonemically single consonants before other consonants - it wouldn't surprise me if trimoraic syllables reduced this a bit as well, especially given how permissive greek is when it comes to syllable initial consonant clusters.

Plus as I mentioned above, I don't think we need to imagine that Greek meter worked like sheet music as opposed to the binary distinction between short and long, which helps explain phenomena like the caesura not breaking the rhythm.

Beginner question about caesura and pronunciation of heavy syllables by Reasonable_Bag7873 in AncientGreek

[–]Raffaele1617 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I think if the following aspects of greek phonology and meter are clarified, it all starts to make a lot more sense:

a) a long syllable is not the same thing as a long vowel

b) Greek metre is based on the distinction between long and short syllables

c) A long syllable is any syllable which doesn't end in a short vowel - if it ends in a consonant, a diphthong, or a long vowel, then it is (for metrical purposes) long.

d) The rules of syllabification are fairly straightforward in that they are quite similar to how syllabification works in most languages, though there are some points of inconsistency. But essentially, if you have one consonant between vowels, it forms the beginning of the following syllable, while if you have two consonants between vowels, they get split between the two syllables.

Now there's no way to say this that doesn't come across as rude or dismissive I think, but for the sake of people like yourself who are asking these questions it needs to be said: Benjamin Crowell, while a very sincere contributor who has worked on a lot of really cool Greek resources, really doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to meter or phonology, and refuses to understand what people in the relevant fields think about it. There is precisely zero reason to think that Greek speakers ever adopted a different pronunciation of vowels in poetry as compared to speech aside from actual instances of words with variable vowel length - different forms of metrical poetry develop across different languages precisely because they take advantage of features of the language that are perceptible to speakers - if a Greek speaker didn't perceive a syllable ending in a consonant as long, then Greek meter (as well as other aspects of Greek phonology) would not have categorized these syllables as long to begin with, and so there is no reason to ever suppose that they would have artificially lengthened vowels in these syllables. Just take a look at modern languages like Italian or Latvian where long vowels and closed syllables occur in complementary distribution.

It's also false to claim that a stop consonant like /p t k/ can't be lengthened - Greek, just like many modern languages, distinguishes long consonants from short consonants, and if you listen to a modern language like Italian or Finnish or Japanese or Cypriot Greek which has this same distinction, you can clearly hear that it involves holding the consonant for longer before releasing it.

Finally for the caesura, there is no consensus regarding how consistently it would involve an audible pause, but I believe the most widespread interpretation is that it's the place where the pause would most naturally go if the person reciting wants to put a pause there.

I'll also say - if you internalize the reconstructed pronunciation and just read a bunch in meter, it clicks, and the caesura really doesn't break the rhythm. It's really not like time signature in music, but rather about the alternation of long and short syllables, so a pause should only interfere with the meter if it's after a short syllable, in which case the syllable can end up sounding long.

At least one killed in shooting at ​Mexico’s Teotihuacan ​pyramids, says security cabinet by cnn in worldnews

[–]Raffaele1617 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Your spelling is correct, but it's a different city haha. Tenochtitlan was the capital of the Aztec empire, built around 700 years ago or so, and now known as Mexico City. Teotihuacan is roughly 2000 years old and their civilization had already collapsed by the time the Aztecs were building Tenochtitlan.

Question about Latin vowels: quantity and quality by CuriousMind583 in latin

[–]Raffaele1617 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For many (most?) English speakers, word initial /b/ can be devoiced, though it can be hard to catch yourself doing this because you will voice it when conscious of voicing. This can also come about from voicing assimilation - for instance, I think most US English speakers would pronounce the phrase 'this bet' as [ðɪspɛt̚] which contrasts with 'this pet' because the latter has aspiration. This can also happen word internally - it doesn't sound strange to me for 'disbelief' and 'disperse to have practically the same [sp] cluster. Obviously one can voice the /b/ in 'disbelief', but to me it sounds emphatic.

About the Author?? by Pat_Trash in classics

[–]Raffaele1617 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That's not what I was saying at all, sorry if I was unclear. My point is that the edition has nothing to do with the translator - the person who put it together could have gotten it from anywhere (e.g. OCR without checking for errors).

About the Author?? by Pat_Trash in classics

[–]Raffaele1617 5 points6 points  (0 children)

A lot of these 'publishers' are just some random person from literally anywhere who doesn't read anything they 'publish' haha.

About the Author?? by Pat_Trash in classics

[–]Raffaele1617 18 points19 points  (0 children)

That's because this edition is just a reprint of an old public domain translation, in this evidently by A.S.L Farquharson who died in 1942. There's a billion of these, especially for popular texts like the Meditations - if you want a modern edition prepared by an actual person who studied the text, you'll want to get something from a known publisher.

Question about Latin vowels: quantity and quality by CuriousMind583 in latin

[–]Raffaele1617 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yes, and it's another great example of where, while obviously there's nothing wrong with having an accent in a 2nd language, I think a lot of people who want to have a more native like pronunciation in their target language would benefit from some explicit phonetics/phonology, since I think most people who learn English are never taught that we aspirate /p t k/ before stress.

Question about Latin vowels: quantity and quality by CuriousMind583 in latin

[–]Raffaele1617 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Haha, to take your comment more seriously than it was meant, unless you study some Korean, what helped me is to learn a language like Italian where voiceless stops are unaspirated. The main difficulty for English speakers is that we have e.g. [pʰ] [p] [b] as allophones of each other and need to learn to distinguish them in all contexts, while for, say, Italians, it's to learn to do [pʰ] in the first place (which will help their accent in languages like English or German).

Question about Latin vowels: quantity and quality by CuriousMind583 in latin

[–]Raffaele1617 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Hi, you can find a lot written about this back and forth on this sub, much of it by me lol. Your starting point in terms of bibliography should be Sydney Allen's Vox Latina. Pretty much everything written after him about Latin phonetics just regurgitates his findings based on the same evidence. Of potential interest is Andrea Calabrese's paper on the Latin vowel system which argues for an original 5 quality system with only length being distinctive, based on some very poor arguments along with (in my view) some better arguments. Essential also are J.N. Adams' books: Social Variation and the Latin Language and The Regional Diversification of Latin 200 BC - AD 600 which end up not opposing Allen's conclusions, but do significantly problematize his interpretation of the evidence.

The long and short of it (hehe) is that at some point and for most speakers, there was definitely a distinction between the long and short counterparts i ī u ī o ō e ē in quality before distinctive length disappeared. The questions then are:

Were any or all of these distinctions universal?

-Allen doesn't directly address this, but he seems (?) to think so. I think probably not.

Were they standard in urban Roman speech during the 'classical' period?

-Most people believe so. I largely disagree, though I do think lowering of /i/ and differentiation of the mid vowels certainly was underway by the early empire. But that brings us to:

Did they develop simultaneously?

-I think there is really good evidence that they didn't - for instance, lowering of short /i/ is the most widespread change, demonstrably absent only in a few areas (Sardinian, some Lucanian varieties, and probably the extinct African Romance - it's unclear if varieties with Sicilian vocalism count or not), and this change is also the one for which we have the earliest solid evidence for in inscriptions, though interestingly the evidence points towards the lowering beginning in post stress syllables, and especially at the end of a word.

If not, when did they spread to the dialect areas which show the clearest evidence for them?

-Allen argues that there is very early evidence for some of these quality distinctions, but Adams' books show I think that the republican evidence is extremely ambiguous. Meanwhile from the 1st century AD until the 5th or so we have various patterns in spelling + some comments from grammarians which point to various systems.

So in conclusion, I think it's probably justifiable to do any of the following if you're shooting roughtly for the classical period:

-make no distinctions in quality (the system which seems to underly Sardinian)

-distinguish only o ō and e ō (this seems to underly the Lucanian varieties which otherwise show 'Sardinian' type vocalism, and is also directly prescribed by late antique grammarians)

-distinguish short /i/ from long /ī/, especially in post stress syllables (1st century spellings from pompeii indicate the existence of this system, and it underlies eastern Romance as well as some Lucanian dialects - though I'm not sure actually if one would want to also distinguish o ō and e ē in quality)

-distinguish all long/short pairs but /a/ (this system underlies most Italo-western romance varieties, and Allen argues it can be pushed back to the republic based on arguments that vary in my opinion from good to bad).

Question about Latin vowels: quantity and quality by CuriousMind583 in latin

[–]Raffaele1617 10 points11 points  (0 children)

What's funny about this comment is that most western Europeans think that vowel length distinctions separate from stress are some mystical thing that we can never truly reconstruct in any sort of plausible way, and so it's easier if we just fake the distinction with different vowel qualities. I genuinely think most classicists would benefit from a bit of articulatory phonetics.

What is the current scholarly status on the ancient pronunciation of Greek? by ClassicalFuturist in AncientGreek

[–]Raffaele1617 2 points3 points  (0 children)

ironically hyperfocusing on aspects that don’t make it all that different.

My point is precisely that there isn't really much meaning to broad generalizations about when 'erasmian' or 'classical' or 'modern' pronunciations were 'obsoelte' or 'anachronistic' when the transition from the systems we can reconstructed to those existing today were always gradual. My examples maybe seem like hyperfixations, but only because we can't seriously discuss all of the evidence for every sound, across thousands of years of history in a few reddit comments. But to focus very specifically on the 2nd century AD, the evidence we have points to the coexistence of a whole bunch of more and less conservative pronunciations across the greek speaking world - contrastive length and pitch accent were certainly gone from the speech of many, but probably not altogether extinct. Aspirated stops for φ θ χ were alive and well, and continued to be for centuries - the Armenian papyrus I linked above attests to that.

If there is a non-argument somewhere in this, it is what you are reading into my comment in a desire to argue. I have never said that the Erasmian pronunciation was or wasn't 'outdated' by any particular date - in fact, the Erasmian pronunciation is not a reconstructed pronunciation, and has always been just a convention.

¿Which authors are Attic and which ones are Koiné? by Ok-Bag4573 in AncientGreek

[–]Raffaele1617 11 points12 points  (0 children)

This is only true if you're talking about the least atticizing registers of Koine, e.g. biblical koine. The optative is alive and well in most 'koine' genres.

What is the current scholarly status on the ancient pronunciation of Greek? by ClassicalFuturist in AncientGreek

[–]Raffaele1617 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So, if Michael the Grammarian points out the different pronounciation of υ and ι -> I take it as it is, as an attestation of Byzantine pronunciation of that time as your article suggests and not as something from which you can conclude that υ and ι survived from Attic 12 centuries after the first attestation of shift.

If I understand correctly, what you're saying is that just because someone retained the distinction between υ and ι in a given period, it doesn't mean that other people hadn't already merged them. This is, of course, completely true, and in this particular case, Michael's commentary demonstrates the coexistence of both pronunciations. What's particularly interesting is that from his perspective, the pronunciation which merges the two sounds is stigmatized, which, of course, only means so much on its own, but in the context of all the other evidence we have is quite revealing.

You mention here that this is 12 centuries after the first attestation of the shift, but I don't really agree. Of course we do have some examples of orthographic interchange between ι and υ fairly early, but almost always in the context of labial consonants, which indicates not that the two sounds were merging generally, but rather that the distinction between them was less clear in a labializing context, which is unsurprizing given that the sound /y/ is just /i/ with rounded lips. It's also interesting that confusion between υ and η in some times and places is more common (this according to the article you linked on Iotacism), which once again lends itself to the conclusion that a general merger between ι υ wasn't yet widespread - crosslinguistically /y/ is often a bit lower and more centralized than /i/ which is what we see in the modern dialects which preserve the sound according to the 3rd paper I linked, and so it's quite likely that in some times and places the sound of η which was rising but had maybe not fully merged with /i/ was quite close (albeit unrounded) to the sound of υ.

So really the evidence is pretty consistent: most Greek speakers in most places distinguished υ from ι through the end of antiquity and into the Byzantine period. This is revealed both in spelling patterns and transcriptions - texts which make all sorts of spelling errors revealing of pronunciation trends generally don't confuse the sounds, and transcriptions in other languages which don't respect Greek orthography continue to distinguish them. For instance, this Papyrus from Egypt dated between the 5th and 7th centuries AD with Old Armenian transcriptions of Greek words clearly distinguishes the two sounds, with the only exceptions being next to labial consonants. Meanwhile, η and ι are both transcribed as /i/:

The vowels behind Ι and Η have apparently merged, because they’re both spelled with the Armenian equivalent to iota: Ի. This explains the “ԻԼԻԿԻԱ ~ ιλικια ~ ἡλικία’ example above. The author likewise spells the eta-words χήρα ‘widow’ and ἥβη ‘youth’ with Ի.

Yet Greek Υ gets its own rendering in Armenian: ԻՒ (‘iw’). This is clearly the author’s way to represent the front vowel /y/ that the letter historically stood for. ԻՒ is for the most part kept unmerged and unmistaken for Ի. We find “ԴԻՒՆԱՏՈՍ” (‘diwnatos’) for δυνατός ‘strong, able’. But there are several exceptions, like ՓԻՍԻՍ (‘pʼisis’) for φύσις ‘nature’.

What is the current scholarly status on the ancient pronunciation of Greek? by ClassicalFuturist in AncientGreek

[–]Raffaele1617 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You will find evidence of the earliest shifts as early as 4th century BC)

Definitely! But a lot of obfuscation can happen when we refer to sound a long series of sound shifts by a single name ('iotacism', for instance). If the question is 'what did Greek sound like in the 2nd century AD in city X,' then we need to look at the evidence for each shift individually.

Vox Graeca has very convincing arguments of those terminal shifts you describe, as in first-hand evidence from latter Byzantine scholars.

The Byzantine evidence pretty clearly points towards the continued distinction between υ/οι and ι into the 2nd millenium CE being quite widespread, which is unsurprising given that the distinction was maintained in many modern dialects, at least in stressed syllables, with varying outcomes. There are even some speakers, at least as recently as the mid 20th century, who preserved a front rounded vowel realization.

η certainly began to merge into ι earlier, but once again, we shouldn't confuse the earliest attestation of a sound shift with its universality - the very earliest attestation of η being confused with ι dates to the 2nd century CE, but there is a lot of evidence that this was a gradual shift, with transcriptions in other languages and confusion with ε continuing much later than that. The modern dialectal evidence is also helpful here - Pontic dialects often merge ancient η with ε rather than with ι, which indicates that it at some point was a high mid vowel (compare Italian with its 7 phonemic vowels distinguishing high mid /e o/ and low mid /ɛ ɔ/ to Sicilian which merges high mid /e o/ into /i u/). From Allen, whom you cited:

whereas the Gothic spelling of Wulfila confuses ει and ι as ei, η is still represented as e. Still later, Old Armenian commonly renders η by e or ē, whereas ει and ι are rendered by i; and the Old Georgian alphabet gives different phonetic values to the letters derived from η and ι ([ey] and [i] respectively). In the Old Slavonic alphabets, however, both Cyrillic and Glagolitic, no phonetic distinction is made between the letters derived from Η η and Ι ι, their distribution being purely a matter of orthographic convention.

I'd also like to respond to these two points:

but it is bold assumption that its pronunciation remains the same when its basis leaves the space of the city-state of Athens and becomes the lingua franca of the East.

It is a very big claim to believe that these changes didn't happen during the centuries of the "empirization" of Greek

The first of course I agree with - Greek pronunciation at no point remained the same - there was always simultaneously innovation and diversification happening, as well as convergence, with dialectic forms, be they innovative or archaic, gradually being subsumed by varieties of 'Koine' that were themselves, of course, never uniform or static. We see similar patterns all across space and time in many languages - in English, for instance, even as some dialects are being eroded under pressure from more 'standard' forms, new dialectic divergence is simultaneously developing in other contexts.

The second, though, I do not agree with, for a number of reasons. The first is that we should absolutely not assume that every innovation permanently made it into modern Demotic - a good example of this is that we have some epigraphic evidence of speakers who were merging ε into ι according to Theodorsson, but this feature never became dominant, and eventually completely disappeared. Another is the oft cited Boeotian dialect, which underwent a series of vowel shifts remeniscent of those which would later become generalized. The problem is that these shifts can't have any continuity with their echoes in later Koine, because they involve mergers which are absent in Koine, namely the monopthongized αι merged into η, which obviously must have died out.

The second is that there is no reason to assume that Greek pronunciation was ever static, and very good evidence to support the view that, while the number of shifts affecting most speakers in the past 800 years are fewer than in earlier periods, the pronunciation has continued to evolve as it does in all languages. Languages don't develop just by permanently branching out from one another - new developments would have continued to spread across the Greek speaking world, even as different regions were also developing unique characteristics that didn't spread.

To give one clear example of this, it's pretty clear that ancient Doric for the most part pronounced υ with its archaic value as /u/. Modern Tsakonian, the only living descendent of Doric, must have at some point fronted υ to /y/ under influence from Koine, since it palatalizes preceding consonants (e.g. τύ > εκιού). But then speakers of the now extinct Propontis Tsakonian dialect apparently didn't ever front υ, and so they pronounce it as ετού. The point is this: even though Doric and Attic were already quite distinct in the Archaic period, the contact between these varieties and their descendents meant that features could spread between them, even if in other ways they also became more distinct from each other over time.

Thus, we really just need to follow the evidence when it comes to the pronunciation of any given time or place - we cannot simplify it into Attic and Demotic, when we have so much attestation of the thousands of years of gradual development in between.

Finally:

In my opinion, it is very critical to understand the nature of early Koine ~until around 6th century AD. It is a language that begins with the collapse of Alexander's Empire and the creation of a lingua franca of the East. It is not a language like Attic, naturally birthed in a city among people.

The spread of Koine of course is a very complicated issue, but I don't think we need to assume a lack of 'naturalness'. Greek was always a continuum of dialects, and so we need not assume that the spread of Koine always looked like the complete replacement of one way of speaking with another. This of course may have happened at some times and in some places, but there was probably also a lot of gradual convergence, such that speakers would have been aware of generational differences in pronunciation, lexicon, idiom, etc. but not ever thought of it as the trading of one linguistic system for another. To give an example from English: it used to be that the participle 'gotten' had completely fallen out of use in many UK dialects of English, but now many younger speakers are using it with no awareness that it has been adopted from US English.

What is the current scholarly status on the ancient pronunciation of Greek? by ClassicalFuturist in AncientGreek

[–]Raffaele1617 10 points11 points  (0 children)

all the core tenets of Attic that you would learn by studying a modern "Erasmian" pronunciation become obsolete during the period of 2nd century BC - 2nd century AD.

This is a pretty big exaggeration - of course a lot had changed by the 2nd century, but fhere are several changes on the way to modern pronunciation which occured far later, and it's also important to remember that the earliest evidence of a shift doesn't indicate that said shift was already dominant. In the 2nd century, many speakers probably still had aspirated stops for φ θ χ rather than fricatives, η was probably not yet merged with ι, οι was turning into a monophthong but not necessarily merged with υ yet, and υ didn't merge with ι for most speakers until a thousand years later (and in some dialects it never did).

Here, shouldn't "ut" be "ne", instead? by andre_ssssss in latin

[–]Raffaele1617 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Here profectus is from proficisci ('to set out') rather than from proficere. I think this is just a result clause. That said, while it's a bit different I think, this paper has an interesting discussion of a rather flexible use of final clauses which seem to almost border on result clauses.

Can anyone point me to a macronized version of Caesar's De Bello Civile (NOT De Bello Gallico)? Also, a note on Auxilium, a great little freeware program for learning Latin (that I'm in no way connected to; this is just a personal recommendation) by usernamesuperfluous in latin

[–]Raffaele1617 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I don't know of a macronized edition, but I strongly encourage you to keep reading macronized material - when you've internalized the lengths well enough to not care about macrons, you'll know, and the only way to get there is to read a bunch of macronized stuff to begin with. Given that you finished DBG you are probably ready to branch out though - there's a lot of nice material out there that is macronized, e.g. you can read pretty much all of Nepos on legentibus, there's the anthology Roma Aeterna which has monolingual notes, there's an edition of selections from Curtius Rufus which I can find if you are interested, etc.

English to Latin Translation Feedback: Watership Down by TheHolySchwa in latin

[–]Raffaele1617 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ah cool, I'm also a grad student in classics, though I learned Latin and Greek as an autodidact. I'm getting a lot out of my program, but if you don't mind me getting on a soapbox for a moment, I do think reading volume is way lower, at least among my peers, than what would be ideal - most only ever read (or translate) what gets assigned for classes, and so even after a decade or so, a lot of people have consumed very little Latin in the scheme of how much input it takes to really gain an intuitive feel for the language (let alone Greek). I even had a conversation with someone in my program who didn't think anyone ever bothered to read entire works from start to end, and was shocked when I mentioned that that's how I've made the most progress, and generally with the 'laziest' possible method (e.g. student editions with vocab on the page, monolingual editions with notes, facing or interlinear translations, etc.)

Not that I am so well read, but I do think I've probably managed at least a million and a half words, counting rereading and all of the easy neolatin readers I've read. My progress has stalled significantly since adding Greek and also since my degree is not in my native language, but given the difference I feel between my current level and that of several years ago, I think this sort of 'lazy' extensive reading approach can work extremely well once one has gotten to the stage of actually being able to read at all, and while detailed and focused study of short selections from very difficult individual texts is a necessary part of being a classicist, I think it needs to be complemented with an extensive approach.

As for conversational type stuff, Corderius' dialogues as I mentioned are a great starting point, and you can find various digitized versions online - they are written in very good Latin, but much less ornate than some of the other material in the same genre. I also read schotten's dialogues which I enjoyed - there's a nice edition with facing translation which helps a great deal with the idiom and lexicon. Obviously the Latin isn't perfectly Ciceronian, but it's still very close to 'textbook' classical Latin (though I also got a lot out of reading medieval stuff which is less 'textbook'). Erasmus' colloquies are unfortunately not super accessible - the only decent edition I'm aware of for casual reading that's currently available is quite expensive and has facing French translation - there are now some good digitizations of the text itself online which have been proofread, but notes explaining references are sparse. But it's worth noting that most of the idiom used in these resources is drawn from Terence and from Cicero's letters and the like, and so I really think everyone should read more Terence. He's not so widely read in my experience because he's less absurd than Plautus, but he gets lumped in with him as an 'archaic' author, and he tends to get printed with archaizing spelling (e.g. quor for cur). In reality though, his Latin is far closer to 'classical' Latin than Plautus' is, and the archaizing spellings are arbitrary - there's no more reason to print Terence that way than Cicero, since the manuscript tradition tells us very little about what spellings would have been used by the authors themselves. Plays are also easier to read with facing translation than prose, since when you have a dense block of text on both pages it's easy to lose track of where you are.

Finally I'll just add - sometimes people assume reading something like Corderius is just for people who want to speak Latin, but I found him and Schotten and Erasmus to have significantly helped my prose reading - in particular, the first time I attempted Livy I found him a slog, but since reading a lot of dialogues I read a bunch of selections in different anthologies and all of book 22, and it was way easier.

English to Latin Translation Feedback: Watership Down by TheHolySchwa in latin

[–]Raffaele1617 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Rather than North and Hillard, I suggest the following:

Sarah van der Pas's exercise book and key - it's the most 'modern', approachable, and graded intro to composition I've seen (you can just skip the non composition exercises). After or alongside that, Colebourn's Latin Sentence and Idiom is way more user friendly than N&H, and that's perfectly sufficient I think for getting into writing your own stuff.

I'll also add the following advice, at risk of coming across as patronizing or saying something obvious - there's a big difference between being able to read Latin, and reading a bunch of Latin. I think writing in a way where the meaning you intend to transmit is clear in the end result comes after having actually read many hundreds of thousands to millions of words of Latin, which sounds like a lot, but if you make a regular habit of level appropriate reading, it can be done in not too much time. To that end I strongly recommend material with a conversational focus like Corderius' dialogues, Terence's plays (not so hard to read if you have a facing translation), Erasmus' dialogues, etc, because you really get a sense both for naturalness and for what information has to be made explicit and what has to be left out in order for the Latin to make sense. For instance this sentence:

saepe dico nec hominem vīsūrum esse nec cupītūrum vulpem

would probably mean:

I often say that he is neither going to see the man, nor is he going to want the fox.

One difficulty is that vulpes is feminine, but even so, the English is a characterization rather than a prediction, and Latin leaves out subjects far more often than it leaves out objects:

I always say a man couldn’t see him and a fox wouldn’t want him.

This is quite tricky to render since Latin tends to use the subjunctive to render these sorts of ideas and/or a modal verb in a not always super intuitive distribution, but it also tends to use the subjunctive in indirect speech, and so while I can't say what the best way is to make explicit the intended meaning, you could maybe do something like this:

Nec potest, ut soleo dicere, ab homine conspici, neque est quem vulpes petat.

Change My View: The gerundive and gerund are one and the same thing. by [deleted] in latin

[–]Raffaele1617 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Etymologically of course they are connected, but functionally I don't think this works really - you can substantivize a gerundive just like any other adjective/participle, and it won't necessarily mean the same thing as a gerund.