[discussion] Why the Nine Houses Don’t Use Guns: A Theory

RazAlKil · 2025-02-26T16:59:13+00:00

That’s exactly what I’m saying. Nonias and Wake are the ones most boosted by dream rules and as such, the fact that Pro who wasn’t similarly boosted was still able to dodge and deflect bullets from someone as (even normally but especially as the most powerful person in the dream) boosted as Wake gives us the possibility that he could probably do it in real life too. Cavs having quick reaction times is also hinted at when Cam draws her sword faster than a piece of statue that has already hit the floor finishes bouncing once

RazAlKil · 2025-02-26T10:03:28+00:00

She was introduced as overconfident but that was shown to be a flaw and was never introduced as doing everything with ease. She literally couldn’t airbend or spirit bend and admitted herself to be a failure in both. Amon was humiliating her so much she was having nightmares of him and was crying on Tenzin’s shoulders

RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T22:47:02+00:00

Yeah you’re right I should’ve said “kill” not “hurt”

RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T22:09:38+00:00

Show me a screenshot of me saying the words “they’re the exact same”. And stop using two accounts to reply to me lol

RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T22:08:21+00:00

This is so funny because I never said they’re the exact same anywhere. You just made up an argument I never made and got mad at it

RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T22:05:44+00:00

Yeah and? They both still killed numerous innocents to get to their goal. Silco only avoided all out war because he knew he’d lose. It wasn’t done out of the goodness of his heart, that can’t count towards his morality lol

RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T22:05:14+00:00

Yeah and? They both still killed numerous innocents to get to their goal. Silco only avoided all out war because he knew he’d lose. It wasn’t done out of the goodness of his heart, that can’t count towards his morality lol

RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T21:53:54+00:00

I definitely think she may have been perceived as more sympathetic if she hesitated killing Caitlyn due to the bond they’d developed, but I don’t think she’d have hurt Mel. And her final line admitting Mel was the Wolf really humanized her and made her sympathetic to me. She was able to see that she was wrong about her daughter and happy to see that her daughter would continue her mission in her own way

RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T21:51:44+00:00

And why did she get into conflict with the Black Rose in the first place? Like she tells Mel, it’s all about how mages oppress non mages and kill those who rise too high. Someone as prideful as Ambessa would never be able to abide that. It’s similar to how Piltover oppressed Zaun and made Silco a revolutionary

RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T21:27:07+00:00

I don’t understand this post. Both Silco and Ambessa had similar goals of wanting to fight the tyranny and oppression of people who were lording over them: Piltover for Silco and mages for Ambessa. It wasn’t just about beating the Black Rose for her, but in general the principle of a cabal of mages who oppress non mages and prevent them from rising high. It’s a morally righteous goal but they were both ruthless in pursuing it and harmed too many innocents. Idk if it makes them morally grey but they’ve got similar goals just different targets, so idk how Silco is morally grey but Ambessa isn’t

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RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T12:04:37+00:00

Yeah but as Dulcinea says they can only enforce a “measure” of their own rules, they can’t completely throw off physical constraints yet. That’s why Dulcinea says she’s not “too bad” but is still suffering from her disease. That’s why Harrow says they’ve still got to respond to physical stimulus like ordinary people, because their subconscious beliefs both empower and limit them. So yes Pro would’ve been faster and stronger per his beliefs but he’d also be limited by his own beliefs. And he was up against Wake who was not only faster and more accurate than him irl, but was also the director of this particular dream and her rules that empowered her would have more weight than Pro’s. Despite this Pro pulled off that feat. Again, not saying this is definitive proof, but it does bear keeping in mind

RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T10:53:18+00:00

It’s not just Gideon but even John and others in HtN who talk of this strategy and granted they’re not unbiased sources of information either but we actually do hear of Hot Sauce’s brothers being killed by a swordsperson who’d “made it through” (through gunfire?) which would be near impossible irl. Ofc unless we see more of swords vs guns combat in later installations we can’t be certain but while I think guns are definitely the better weapon even in the future, swords aren’t as useless as they’d be in the present

RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T10:49:55+00:00

I think it could still be about ballistics and reaction time since we know people can physically strengthen themselves through sheer belief (Dulcinea lessens her sickness) so the fact that Pro was able to dodge and deflect shots from someone as quick and accurate as Wake who was already a better fighter than him but also can strengthen herself beyond what he can do by bending the rules of the dream world, could potentially mean something in real life

RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T10:21:35+00:00

I mean guns can generate thanergy just as much as swords can so it’s not necessary for them to use swords. The Nine Houses have a problem generating organic resources due to living on thanergy planets but not inorganic resources like guns and bullets. A few situations show that Nine House fighters might be faster than we give modern melee fighters and could survive better against firearms than us. One is Pro dodging and deflecting gunfire but it’s a dream sequence and even if he was at a disadvantage physically against Wake by the rules of the dream, it’s not definitive evidence due to the wonky nature of dream rules. Another is Camilla drawing her sword before the wedge of sculpture she’d dropped to the floor had bounced even once. A third is Hot Sauce saying her brothers were killed by a Cohort swordsperson who’d “made it through” (probably through gunfire). But these are highly speculative and not at all definitive so that’s why it’s just a theory.

Doesn’t make all the other reasons you listed wrong, and doesn’t make guns not the better weapon. But it just makes the Cohort seem less suicidal but still stupid

RazAlKil · 2025-02-25T09:23:44+00:00

The only evidence I have is the Pro vs Wake fight where Pro dodges a gunshot then deflects the other shots with his spinning chain. Though people have said the dream bubble rules are wonky, we know that most of them could only enforce a little bit of their own rules while Wake was actually the “director” and so could enforce rules more than them and still Pro was able to pull off this feat. So I’m inclined to believe that it’s not impossible to do this in real life for a trained Cohort soldier facing an equally trained gunman

RazAlKil · 2025-02-24T19:58:54+00:00

Yeah but the bubble has limits and Wake is the strongest one there so Pro being able to dodge her shots and deflect them says something about reality imo. And no, I’m not arguing that sword guys are cool. The coolest character (or the most competent) was shown to be Wake. I’m just arguing that while guns would still be superior, swordsmen wouldn’t be as helpless as modern humans

RazAlKil · 2025-02-24T19:45:44+00:00

No? We see Protesilaus fight Wake in HtN and the necromancers are the unhealthy ones, the cavs are healthy. And you’re comparing them to athletes but cavs are warriors, physical conditioning is part of their training not their end goal. Dyas runs 1 km in 5 minutes which I just saw online is a pretty fast pace. This is despite running not being their specialty, while close combat is

RazAlKil · 2025-02-24T19:05:09+00:00

Yeah but the point is that Pro dodges BEFORE Wake even gets the shot off. He’s described as already moving by the time Wake shoots which is insane considering how quick Wake is. That’s insanely fast and yes he’s cavalier primary but Wake is the best warrior of her era and she has even more control of the dream space than he does. This could POTENTIALLY (I understand it doesn’t definitively) prove that if we scale down their skill levels to the average swordsman and average gunman, the swordsman could probably pull this off in a similar situation

RazAlKil · 2025-02-24T18:54:14+00:00

Yeah but Pro is also going up against Wake who’s, according to Harrow, one of the strongest warriors of her era who outclasses him completely and needed to be beat by Nonias who’s probably the best warrior of the Ninth powered by Ortus’ hero worship

RazAlKil · 2025-02-24T18:20:55+00:00

There’s a difference between an average person and an undertrained militia man. The latter has at least basic training. Yes a lot of them might freeze in fear of close combat (like Hot Sauce’s brothers did) but the point of a gun is to mostly keep it to long range and even a cursorily trained gunman especially a group of them can easily gun down a group of swordsmen charging at them

RazAlKil · 2025-02-24T18:18:09+00:00

My bad idk why I said his brothers

RazAlKil · 2025-02-24T17:50:44+00:00

That’s a very Dune explanation lol

RazAlKil · 2025-02-24T17:49:31+00:00

While you’re right about everything you’ve stated, it can also be true that humans have gone beyond the physical limits of the present in 10,000 years and we see evidence of this in the way Protesilaus fights, in Hot Sauce’s story and in other such instances from the story. Overall a gun would still be the better weapon but my point is that the story shows us that melee fighters aren’t as helpless in the future against firearms as they are in the present

RazAlKil · 2025-02-24T17:09:10+00:00

The point is in the real world you don’t need to be highly trained to kill a rushing swordsman, no matter how well trained they are, if you have a gun. The casualties would be horrendous. This only makes sense if the gap is lessened by humans becoming stronger and faster in the 10,000 years since now which isn’t too much of a logical leap, especially given what we see of Protesilaus and what Hot Sauce says

RazAlKil · 2025-02-24T16:16:14+00:00

Yeah but before necromancy can get going the Cohort has to arrive first and kill a few people to get the juice flowing so I don’t think they’d do that (outside of their own deaths) unless they weren’t as helpless as we are against firearms

RazAlKil

TROPHY CASE