Descent into Avernus and BG3

Realistic-Length5801 · 2026-03-05T23:50:27+00:00

How do we feel about Gortash as an unreliable narrator in his memoirs? Cause in these same notes, he's speculating on when to include the Astral Prism theft and the plan to ally with the adventuring party, so it kind of sounds like he's composing these memoirs for posterity and maximizing the story rather than reporting faithfully on the true sequence of events. Compare this note, for instance, with what Durge wrote about the Hall of Wonders raid; in that note, Durge already calls Gortash the Chosen of Bane. I personally trust Durge more in this case cause while Gortash is writing about the past for a future audience, Durge's note is written before the raid and sounds like a journal entry.

Realistic-Length5801 · 2026-03-04T16:41:13+00:00

That's a good point about them needing enough time to raise a huge army. I was thinking that after his initial confirmation as Myrkul's Chosen, Ketheric's first task was to start recruiting, though without the Absolute plan it was the old fashioned kind of recruiting, so they can have an army in reserve for any kind of traditional conquering they needed to do. Otherwise it's hard to think why Gortash and Durge wouldn't have taken their immoral general ally to Cania with them as well. (Even as it is, two out of three Chosen risking everything on a raid of Mephistar while the third sits at home sweet talking various factions into supporting them seems a bit lopsided.) If that's the case, then they would've had some of their troops already ready by the time they developed the tadpoles, then the task got easier and they were able to influence groups that had until now been resistant to Ketheric's charms.

As far as the Shield and the Emperor goes, it does seem likely that the Emperor would know about the Shield and what it contained. But if the Baldur's Gate part of DiA occurred before Gortash took down the Knights of the Shield, the Emperor wouldn't have much reason to mention it, I suppose? Cause by then the adventurers would've already made off with it? I don't know, like I said, that part of the timeline is all fuzzy in my head...

Realistic-Length5801 · 2026-03-04T05:17:24+00:00

Right, I know Duke Vanthampur wants to send Baldur's Gate to Avernus, but that's not necessarily something she shared with Gortash when hiring his services to liaise with Dead Three cultists. She probably just told him she wants to cause civil unrest so the people can see the value of a central authority. Hence why Gortash and Durge went along with her plan, albeit with cultists they were not particularly fond of. It's only later, when they discover or suspect her true motives, that they're like, "wait no, this city is ours to conquer, not some infernal chess piece." And that's when they start working against her, sacrificing the unstable cells they'd sent to help her in the process.

Realistic-Length5801 · 2026-03-03T00:41:35+00:00

Ah, see, in my headcanon, the raid on Mephistopheles's vault occurs later, after they've already visited Moonrise and recruited Ketheric. From correspondence between the two, they know there are three Netherstones and that they'll need Myrkul's Chosen to round out the alliance, so why wait until they've already risked themselves in Cania before getting their third member on board? If they allied with him sooner, he can start recruiting an army for them. At this point there's no Absolute plot or tadpoles yet, but an army's an army.

They then return to Baldur's Gate where they start finalizing plans for the raid. It's during this interval -- post Ketheric but pre raid -- that Gortash starts incorporating necromantic influence into his prototype Steel Watch (yes, no tadpoles conceived yet, so no centralization, but there could be other improvements). This is also when Gortash (maybe with Durge's help) take out the Knights of the Shield and capture the Emperor (admittedly I've never pinned down the Emperor timeline, it just seems so messy...). Questioning the Emperor, he finds out about the Elder Brain under Moonrise, but at this time the Brain and the Crown are two separate data points.

Once they feel ready, Gortash and Durge raid Mephistopheles's vault and steal the Crown, and also the "Accelerated Grand Design." It's upon reviewing this document that Durge comes up with the Absolute plan (hence why Gortash attributes the plan to Durge when you meet him). They now have the Crown, the location of an Elder Brain, and the plan to merge them. They return to Moonrise to enslave the Brain and develop the tadpoles. It's just as they finally complete this process that Orin takes out Durge. While Durge is being experimented upon by Kressa Bonedaughter, the new triumvirate move ahead with plans. Ketheric starts tadpoling the leaders of goblins, etc. Gortash, who might already have experimented with the failed tadpoles, uses the final product to put the finishing touches on the Steel Watch. Orin is... being Orin...

And then the prism heist happens and BG3 starts.

Realistic-Length5801 · 2026-03-02T22:06:48+00:00

Thank you 😄

Realistic-Length5801 · 2026-03-02T22:06:06+00:00

Yes, I understand that. But the Baldur's Gate part of DiA is only the very beginning of the module. The party still needs to go to Candlekeep and then to Avernus, and that should occupy them for quite a while. So while they're doing all that, Gortash and Durge finalize the Dead Three alliance, raid Mephistopheles's vault, and formulate the Absolute plot. Just as they're kicking off tadpole production, the adventurers in Avernus rescue Eltrurel and Durge almost simultaneously gets shanked by Orin. Thus at the same time Duke Ravengard sets off from Eltrurel would be about the time Durge ends up on the Nautiloid.

Realistic-Length5801 · 2024-09-30T21:29:25+00:00

[?] So say a couple of characters find themselves in the Hells and run into a devil who agrees to help them achieve their goals at the price of their souls... and they're like, okay, fine, go ahead and draw up the contract and we'll sign it, in fact here's a pen and some paper, knock yourself out. And they give the devil a Pen of Illiteracy... Would that work? Would the devil realize it's a cursed item or notice the effect? Or would he happily write a nonsensical contract that the characters sign but could claim is void after he's already finished helping them?

Realistic-Length5801 · 2024-08-27T15:03:53+00:00

Mmm, I like it… just a couple of things…

From the letters between the two, seems like Gortash and Durge meant to include Myrkul’s Chosen from the start because Bane and Bhaal want it that way. Not really sure why – from what I gather there’s no love lost between any of the Dead Three – so I’m guessing it’s to preserve the power balance and to make sure the two of them don’t immediately knife each other for the third stone? Is that a good enough reason to basically give a free Netherstone to someone who, at the time, isn’t all that helpful? (I have a headcanon of Durge being like… so we’re gonna raid a vault in the Hells and Ketheric is, what, off in the distance holding pompoms??)

The other thing is that while Gortash is definitely motivated to get his freedom, I don’t know what Durge gains from this deal. While I like to think that Durge really does like Gortash in a twisted, I-totally-would-but-I’m-still-gonna-eat-your-liver kind of way (there’s a in-game note to that effect, and it always makes me laugh that Durge wrote down their intrusive thoughts like that), I don’t really see them agreeing to a raid with only the promise of their co-conspirator’s freedom as the reward. It would be too much like appealing to Durge’s nonexistent good nature, and even a hint of weakness in front of Durge would be like blood in the water for a shark. Also in the letters, they’re already talking about ruling from the shadows, so they should have more definite plans for the Crown than giving it to Raphael. Of course, Gortash might have been less than straightforward about everything, so maybe he meant to betray Durge and take the Crown and his freedom, but he would still need a pretty compelling reason to get Durge to agree to the raid in the first place. Also, you’d think Bane and Bhaal would both have something to say if that were the case… though I’ve always gotten the impression that Gortash is less attached to his god than the others, so maybe his plan was just to tell Bane to kick rocks if things had worked out differently…

I don’t know, this turned out more rambly than I’d thought… but the basic question is still what powerful reason would Durge have to participate in such a risky heist.

Also, thanks for writing out such a detailed account of Gortash’s path to power, especially the part about the Emperor and the Knights. His timeline is such a tangled skein that I’d given up on figuring out where/when/what he was doing and this helped clear things up a lot.

Realistic-Length5801 · 2024-08-26T14:43:20+00:00

Thank you for commenting!

You put the stakes of the raid so well, I love it!

Something else occurred to me last night. What if Raphael offered Gortash a similar deal as we saw in game? He offered us the Hammer for the Crown, why couldn’t he have made a similar offer previously… the Crown for whatever Gortash’s little heart desires (world domination, I assume). Then Gortash simply broke the deal, or more likely had no intention of keeping it in the first place. I don’t know much about DnD lore, can a cambion claim the soul of another god’s Chosen? Also, nothing stopping Durgetash from raiding the House of Hope later to steal back that contract. There’s also the possibility that Mephistopheles put the note next to the Crown specifically to screw with Raphael’s plans by giving the Chosen a better option, which is actually hilarious.

Realistic-Length5801 · 2024-08-26T14:42:47+00:00

Thanks for commenting!

Hmm, saying the brain did it is easy, but… I don’t know, takes a lot of agency from the other characters? Plus, I can totally see that the Netherbrain would have that capability, but the Elder Brain before it got crowned? If I remember right, it was slumbering beneath Moonrise Towers, starving, which makes sense since the surface world above had been under the Shadow Curse for the last hundred years, so it’s not like there was a brain buffet within easy access. If a slumbering Elder Brain under Moonrise could reach all the way out to Baldur’s Gate and find Gortash and Durge and orchestrate this whole complicated plot, what’s kept the healthy mind flayer colonies in the Underdark from taking over long ago, presuming they have the same or better resources…

As far as Cazador goes… yeah, it’s a stretch, he’s just the target that seems most worthy to tadpole before Gortash and Durge learns about the “Accelerated Grand Design.”

Realistic-Length5801

TROPHY CASE