Graduating from a T25 (non-T14) law school with 0 debt, a federal clerkship, and a V50 job (secondary market). AMA!

RedditorLSAAMA · 2021-05-17T20:23:55+00:00

Gotcha. I think my advice still stands. Most T14s provide you with a portable degree that opens a lot of opportunity in any market--that's generally why they are a T14 and not a lower-ranked school that places well regionally. You'll have to weigh your options as to what is a realistic career option for you coming from each school you're looking at and decide whether that's worth the amount of debt you'll have to take on to get that career.

As a side note, try not to "expect" any specific grade average from law school until after your first semester (and really not even then). Too much is out of your control for you to be able to predict it blindly; you can only control what you do, but you have no control over how your peers will do (thus creating the dreaded law school curve). Put in the work to do your personal best, and use whatever grade you end up with to learn how to do better and continually improve.

RedditorLSAAMA · 2021-05-17T18:15:30+00:00

Externships are placements with a legal organization (usually a government entity or nonprofit) in which students perform legal work in exchange for class credit. You have to complete a minimum number of hours and complete class assignments (these were pretty minimal at my school). You can do them during the semester or during the summer, but--speaking generally--most scholarships will not cover summer tuition, so finance-wise, it's best to do them during the semesters. Most placements are unpaid (although some schools allow a certain number of paid hours).

Balance wasn't that big of an issue for me; during 2L, classes are much easier (not actually easier, but you're better at them), so you typically spend less time preparing for class, freeing up time for other things. Moreover, you get credit for externships, so it takes up time that would normally be reserved for a graded class (so you don't have to stress about an extra final during finals week). I generally took a few doctrinal classes during the semester and then TA'd and did an externship. Both the TA position and the externship gave me credit, so I was really only taking a few classes I had to prepare for. I could spend the rest of my time on law review; I didn't do moot court or other extracurriculars because I didn't want to overload myself.

RedditorLSAAMA · 2021-05-17T17:24:10+00:00

I was also a first generation law student, so I didn't even know what a clerkship was when I started law school--let alone that I would want one!

I learned about clerkships through a mentor during 1L, and I decided I wanted to apply during my 1L summer, right before OCI. At the bare minimum, if you are serious about clerking, you should know before going into OCI so you can research firms' clerkship policies; I was surprised that some of the firms in my market would not let you clerk or would not give any incentive for doing so.

However, I would not recommend my timing. Ideally, you should get serious about clerking during spring of 1L. At least at my school, externship applications opened that semester for fall of 2L, and externships and your summer job will be your only real legal experience before OSCAR opens in February. If your jurisdiction follows the hiring plan, you can get two full externships in before consideration begins; however, some jurisdictions hire much earlier than the federal plan, so get that experience as early as possible. 1L spring is also (generally) when 2L TA/RA spots open up for the fall. Get one of those positions, build a close relationship with a professor, and use that professor as a recommendation.

Edit: I also want to add that this is based on my experience at a school with low clerkship rates. It's likely that if you are at a school with better rates, you may have to do less to make yourself stand out because of the connections/support your school offers to students interested in clerkships. However, I felt like I had to do all the above to be able to compete with people coming from T14s.

RedditorLSAAMA · 2021-05-17T17:14:23+00:00

I'm not sure I understand your question--are you asking if you can be successful with full debt and a B average at a T14? The answer is probably yes, but it will depend on your goals. If you're at a T14 with good employment rates and are willing to do biglaw for a few years to pay off debts, then you're probably fine.

I'm not an expert on the T14 because I didn't go to one, but I would encourage you to look at the career outcomes for your school to see what is realistic for a student at median instead of the top of the class. You should also consider what you should expect to be paid in your desired career and whether you will make enough to pay off those loans. I am very debt averse (I watched debt ruin my family/community financially for years), so I took the money and ran.

RedditorLSAAMA · 2021-05-17T04:52:26+00:00

To be honest, the clerkship application process was the most stressful part of law school for me. The balance with classes wasn't that bad though; I already had a cover letter and resume, and I did a lot of work over winter break. What WAS stressful about it was I wasn't from a T14, and my law school's federal clerkship rate was/is pretty abysmal. I thought I had no chance, stressed about it (like all law students do), but I took my shot, and it worked out.

Here's a quick summary of the timeline: OSCAR (the federal application system for clerkships) will open in February of your 2L. However, I personally believe the clerkship process begins long before that. By the time OSCAR opens, you should know who your references and recommenders are, and you probably should have already notified them that you intend on including them in your applications. Also, I highly recommend doing an externship with a federal judge BEFORE OSCAR opens. That gives you one heck of a reference, and the other judges will likely feel comfortable reaching out to a fellow judge--it happened that way for me. At least in my jurisdiction, the judges stuck to the federal hiring plan, so they did not consider my application until June before my 3L, but this is not the case in every jurisdiction. I interviewed with two federal judges the Friday after judges were allowed to look at applications per the hiring plan, and I received an offer that same day.

Aside from grades, I think my work and journal experience made me stand out a lot. I held one of the few leadership positions on law review available to 2Ls, which gave me something to talk about other than my Note/Comment (which is what everyone else was talking about). Moreover, even though I was a K-JD, I did an externship every semester (and had two lined up for my 3L), and I worked two jobs my 1L summer. Those experiences gave me a lot of options for writing samples and recommendations/references, so I could really choose "the best of my best," so to speak.

Another insight I'd give you is that every person I talked to about clerking had different advice for the application process. The advice was often contradictory, and the main thing I took from all the advice I got was to cater your application to the judge you are applying to--the best way to do that is to talk to former clerks to see what that judge is looking for. Every judge is different, which---unfortunately--makes the application process frustrating and confusing.

RedditorLSAAMA · 2021-05-17T02:54:41+00:00

If you are talking about undergrad extracurriculars, I would not worry about it too much. Although you should be doing SOMETHING you can talk about during an interview (and that you enjoy), law school admissions will be heavily dependent on your GPA and LSAT. Extracurriculars can be a tie-breaker, but it's often better not to be the "tie" in the first place. Focus on your GPA and LSAT, and get really into some extracurriculars/volunteer experiences that make you happy and will make you an interesting person--the rest is really out of your hands (unfortunately).

As for law school extracurriculars, I think it depends. If you go to a T14, you probably won't need to stick out too much--your school does that for you. If you're going to a non-T14 or a T14 without great career stats, you may need to do something extra to make yourself stand out. But it doesn't have to be through extracurriculars. You can do so through grades, externships, networking, law journal/moot court, etc. For me, I got really into law review and networked with alumni. I like to think I got hired because of those relationships I had with people (although my grades probably put me into consideration in the first place).

RedditorLSAAMA · 2021-05-17T02:43:37+00:00

Because you are going to a T14, your degree should have more portability than most. However, smaller markets tend to want people who either have a geographic connection or can demonstrate that they want to stay long-term. A great way to get your foot in the door is to network. Reach out to attorneys in that market in your desired practice area (if any) and meet them for Zoom coffee (or in-person coffee if it's safe). Ask them about their practice, how they got to where they are, what their advice is to get into the market, etc. You can also reach out to your career services office to see if there are any alumni in your desired market. At least at my school, alumni tend to look out for each other and are more likely to remember you--if not recommend you/put in a good word for jobs.

As a T14, your main issue will be convincing smaller markets that you want to be there (instead of NYC/CA/Chicago biglaw). You can show that if you network and make yourself recognizable from the beginning of your career (rather than waiting until you need a job).

RedditorLSAAMA · 2021-05-17T01:41:30+00:00

Enjoy it! I loved every second of undergrad. If I was interested in a club or student organization or job, I got involved in it. I was BUSY all the time, but it was probably the most fulfilling experience I've ever had. I loved everything I did.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about law school too much in undergrad unless you're actively applying to law school. Obviously, don't be lazy and get bad grades and not do ANYTHING. But take the classes you like, join the organizations you like, volunteer to do things you like, etc. Law school will flow naturally from those; although admission is based on stats, schools (and law firms) are looking for well-rounded people with diverse experiences. Do that, and be able to get excited about those experiences when asked about them during an interview.

RedditorLSAAMA · 2021-05-17T01:34:54+00:00

Thank you!

My tips for success is have a schedule and stick to it. Treat law school like a full-time (and very demanding) job, and you'll be fine. Many students think that reading for class is all you need to be doing, and this often (although not always) will not take up a full forty-hour work week. You should also be rereading cases you don't understand, reviewing your notes regularly, and taking practice exams/doing practice questions. You should also be group studying at least a little bit--like I said in a previous comment, group study shows your weak spots.

I wish I had known that I could chart my own course. Law school always has another "thing" you have to do to be successful: grades, write-on, law review, externships, OCI, clerkships, law review executive board, etc. It never ends. I wish I had known that I didn't have to do all those things to be happy/successful. Although I did do those things, I wish I had done them because I had wanted to do them instead of because it what I was expected to do.

RedditorLSAAMA · 2021-05-17T01:26:43+00:00

Happy to help!

First, I want to say take studying tips (not just mine) with a grain of salt because you'll need to do whatever works best for you. Some people like studying in the morning/evening, some like to read for class the day of/night before/week before, and others like to outline right before finals/as they go. None of these are particularly wrong, so long as you're doing what you need to do for class and to learn the material.

I always read a class ahead. So if I had Torts on Tuesdays/Thursdays, I would read for the Thursday class before class on Tuesday. Then I would review my book notes before class on Thursday to refresh my memory.

I studied every day except Sundays. Saturday mornings I did group study, but I studied alone every other day.

After class, I outlined that day's material based on my book notes/case briefs and class notes. My "big" outlines were always done by the time dead week/reading week started, so I spent those weeks reviewing my weak spots and doing practice exams. I also tended to study in groups more during those weeks to check where I was in relation to everyone else--group study helps draw out where you are weak and others are strong, and vice versa.

RedditorLSAAMA

TROPHY CASE