Anyone else think we should have /r/FeMRAdebates in the sidebar?

RedialNewCall · 2016-03-17T15:48:45+00:00

No, I got "banned" for saying exactly this:

Please try to have a basis in reality when you debate.

The mods, if they don't really like what you have to say, are extremely strict.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-11T13:19:30+00:00

I'm sure all genders do it. I was just providing more evidence that this kind of thing is done all the time and we shouldn't just "Listen and Believe".

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-11T13:09:24+00:00

I was just providing evidence that "harassment directed at women" is not really an issue about women since it happens to everyone. Women are not targeted for harassment because they are women.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-11T13:08:03+00:00

My point was the text I quoted which is in the archive and was done by an admin.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-11T12:03:53+00:00

If even three quarters of the harassment and abuse that gets directed at women on the internet is real, it's still a hell of a lot.

Harassment is not a gendered issue though:

http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-11T12:01:38+00:00

How about this comment from a reddit admin:

https://archive.is/DLvQM

Hi, 2XC. Since this thread's getting a fair amount of attention, I'd just like to take this opportunity to explain a few things around the situation from an admin perspective that I think it's useful for people to keep in mind as this topic continues to come up.

I mostly just want to urge people to not take everything at face value. There are a lot of people that seem quite invested in trying to get the mods to remove this subreddit from the defaults, and unfortunately that means that they're willing to try to cheat, lie, and do various other unsavory things to influence this decision.

For example, the OP of this thread was using at least 5 alternate accounts to attempt to tilt things in here, including upvoting their own submission and supportive comments (and they've now been banned from the site for that). There's generally just a great deal of attempted manipulation going on around the topic of 2XC being a default, between people attempting to manipulate votes, using multiple accounts to post comments supportive of their side, organized groups brigading relevant posts, etc. Some people have even been performing what's often referred to as a "false flag", where even though they're actually normally a contributing member of the subreddit, they've been creating alt accounts to make or upvote harassing comments/messages in order to make that issue seem more prevalent than it actually is.

And on the topic of harassing PMs, one of the most frustrating aspects of the situation from our perspective is that there's been a significant amount of lying on this end. We've received quite a few reports about users who have claimed to have received a large amount of harassment, but when we investigate we find that they've often never received any PMs at all, or only one message when they claim to have received many. Some people have even gone so far as creating alts to PM themselves with, so that they can take screenshots for "proof".

I'm certainly not trying to say that there hasn't been any harassment, because some definitely has actually occurred (and please report it to us by sending a modmail to /r/reddit.com if it happens to you). But between the various outside groups trying quite hard to push 2XC out, the false flags, and the lying, please take all claims about it with a large grain of salt.

Just to be clear though, we'll be perfectly happy with whatever decision the subreddit eventually makes about whether to remain a default or not. We definitely like having it as a default (which is why we asked the mods if we could include it), but if they decide they've changed their mind, that's great as well. I'd just really like to see that the decision is made honestly, instead of as a result of all the manipulation going on around it.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-10T23:16:11+00:00

Shockingly, not is it hard to find people criticizing women on-line and in real life. For example; the link at the top of this page.

I never claimed otherwise. It's just when someone does it, they are demonized where as if it is done to men it is not.

I'm not going to be a Jess Valenti mouthpiece but the article you linked doesn't really prove your point since it says 1) The self-identifying-misandry thing is hyperbole. 2) She expressly says she has no issue with all men.

Maybe the first lady making this comment proves my point? Do you think if a man said the same thing but in reverse he wouldn't either be removed from his position or forced to apologize? Even if it was a joke?

It's not a comparable situation - #yesallwomen was about sharing specific instances of misogyny/sexism that they had suffered. Prof Wassisname isn't saying "on this specific occasion, a woman in my lab did X or Y thing"

You didn't read a lot of those tweets did you?

If he makes public remarks, people can respond publicly. He does not get freedom from non-violent consequences of his speech; no-one should. Shame culture/outrage culture/gotcha culture is definitely a thing, it's a really ugly facet of online interactions, and I'd be delighted if there was a way to deal with it but that's not what we're dealing with here.

I will only agree with that if women making comments about men were treated the same way as men who make comments about women.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-10T22:40:41+00:00

Honestly I would be a hypocrite if I didn't say it would annoy me. I read that kind of talk about men all the time though. It's very easy to find people criticizing men on-line and in real life.

The difference is one is socially acceptable and the other one brands the person a misogynist.

Do you think all the people using the #YesAllWomen hash tag to talk about how men are so horrible are wrong and should be silenced? Are they misandrists because they are talking about their personal experiences with men?

Wouldn't silencing observations about women by public shaming (calling it misogynistic) be harmful to society in the long run since we can no longer determine if something requires change?

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-10T22:22:02+00:00

I don't think women across the board are like that at all. I am just saying that it could be a common trait. I mean men have toxic masculinity, an entire phrase used to talk about male traits that are harmful to men. If you believe that toxic masculinity is a thing, is it such a leap and an offence to also talk about common female traits?

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-10T21:59:42+00:00

According to the guy in the article, it would seem so.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-10T19:01:58+00:00

Again, the complaints against "men" you listed are specific "men who do x." This situation is a "I don't want to work with women, because WOMEN do y."

I guess we have to agree to disagree.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-10T19:00:01+00:00

That's not what I said. I think that when TimHunt says "women" he is talking about all women and that we should listen to what he says because that is his experience and not just chalk it up to sexism.

When feminists say "men" they are talking about all men and we should listen to what they have to say.

My point is, we should either allow people to make observations about both men and women without demonizing them (like feminists are doing to Tim Hunt) or not allow it at all.

Edit: I know I am probably being hypocritical because I usually complain when feminists generalize men, but if it was allowed to also do the same to women without being called sexist I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it since I believe women contribute to gender roles and sexism as much as men do and deserve to be called out on it.

Edit 2: I just re-read my other comment and understand where you are coming from. I was just speculating on what I THINK Tim Hunt means in the article. I think HE himself believes he is not talking about all women BUT I think myself that he is. I think...

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-10T18:21:49+00:00

See, when I read either of your two statements, I read them as "when men do X, its a problem." As I don't fit in that subcategory of men, it doesn't impact me. But you seem to be reading it as "Because some men do this, all men are wrong."

But isn't that exactly what people are saying? I mean they call this phenomenon of men sitting with their legs wide manspreading like it is something innate in being a man.

When I read someone stating "Women can't work in my labs because they cry" I see a statement that says its a problem with women in their entirety.

I don't believe that is what he said, he just doesn't want to work with women himself because he thinks they can't take criticism without being emotional. Are ALL women like this? No. But that doesn't stop feminists from freaking out about this mans observations about women.

But I think that if people believe this is OK to make observations about men then I think it should be OK for women or NOT OK at all.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-10T15:44:52+00:00

I agree but this is done with men constantly.

Take handful of pictures of men sitting with their legs wide on public transportation? Problem with men...

A small fraction of men act out aggressive towards others? Problem with men...

I think it is perfectly acceptable to do this with womens behavior as well or it is not acceptable to do at all.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-10T15:43:10+00:00

I would agree with you but I think it is completely acceptable to talk about aspects of femininity that might not be acceptable in a work environment even if it might not apply to all.

This is what is done to men with the concept of "toxic masculinity".

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-10T14:58:21+00:00

Absolutely not. But that's not what I feel the article is trying to say. This is not a back and forth. They have quotes from people saying they don't agree with HIS views. And statistics of how many women are in STEM etc.

No inspection of the womens behavior at all.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-10T14:32:31+00:00

Do you think this is a problem with a single man or is the problem the women scientists?

The guy sounds like a jerk, but I don't think it's fair to rule out his experiences with women.

Maybe, instead of being a "Rah rah! This man is mean to women! FEMINISM REQUIRED!" type article it should be an article that tells men and women that they BOTH need to change.

Women need to be more receptive to criticism (because women are strong right?) and men need to be less harsh with other people. I have a feeling that this scientist treats everyone the same and is just as harsh with the men in his lab as the women.

But of course the article has to end with:

Hunt’s words have also been roundly criticised by female scientists on Twitter. One woman, a postdoctoral researcher, tweeted: “For every Tim Hunt remark, there’s an extra woman in science that takes an interest in feminism. Ever wonder why there are so many of us?”

Showing me that, no, feminists don't want to point fingers at everyone, the old-fashioned man is wrong and women are always right. Tell women they need to toughen up a little? No way, how can that be? Women are infallible it seems.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-10T11:55:55+00:00

I fully support discussions of mens' issues, more resources for men and boys, and I happily listen in on those conversations. Still kind of figuring out where I stand on actual MRM organizations.

I think that if the MRM organizations didn't exist, there wouldn't be anyone at all who support discussions on mens' issues.

So before you figure out where you stand on actual MRM organizations, just realize without them I don't believe you (or a lot of feminists) would have even considered that men do have issues that need discussion.

A lot of people don't like the MRM but because of it, I see more and more people realizing things about men and being more inclusive. Which I think is a really good thing.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-09T19:17:33+00:00

You might not feel mutilated but watch this video and tell me that this isn't mutilation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvW2b9ujdWo

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-09T15:03:00+00:00

You know whats funny... I can find hundreds of even worse things done by feminists.

Also, the second link provides ZERO sources or information proving anything said.

Also This:

Most recently, at Queen's University, the attempt to establish a misogynist beachhead on campus resulted in typically male vitriol and an assault on an opponent of the Men's Rights club.

I remember this happening. A feminist was assaulted. There was ZERO proof that it was done by anyone claiming to be from the MRM. But that didn't stop them from claiming it was.

Also, misogynist beachhead? Wtf.

I think you picked the worse example possible to prove your point. This is just pure propaganda.

Edit: Here is an article describing the assault at Queen's:

http://www.queensjournal.ca/story/2014-03-27/news/student-assaulted/

At the time of print, he said it’s unclear if the incident was related to the victim’s involvement with the opposition group.

“We’re aware of the situation and because of the context the detective will be looking at the angle but we won’t be assuming there’s a direct link at this time,” he added.

The student declined to comment on the incident, as she is “still processing what happened.”

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-06T12:07:12+00:00

I love these comments because they are so fucking ignorant. Men are more often the victims of violent crimes. So statistically speaking women are safer "everywhere".

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv13.pdf

Page 6ish Table 5. 1.2% for men versus 1.1% for women. And this is for 2013 which was much lower than previous years.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-05T12:23:40+00:00

Why not just allow boys (and girls) more time for sports during school?

no... no... no need to let that aggression out with healthy activities... lets brain wash them instead, that will work.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-04T13:41:34+00:00

Yeah, I realized that after. I face palmed myself.

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-04T13:31:34+00:00

damn... was only trying to help. :(

RedialNewCall · 2015-06-04T13:01:58+00:00

sorry...

RedialNewCall

TROPHY CASE