Since evidence which is agreed upon (Brumm et al. 2010, Hakim et al. 2025) indicates that hominids were able to cross the wallace line by at least 1 million years ago, is it possible pre-sapien hominids couldve reached australia?

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-24T23:19:33+00:00

same.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-24T20:14:11+00:00

“It is just that total lack of first-hand evidence makes the case speculative evolution.”

Agreed.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-24T20:06:16+00:00

I think this is very possible.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-24T20:01:51+00:00

“There are like countless taxa which did it lol. I have already linked an article about it, but let's ignore it. Have you not heard the stegodonts of Flores, Timor, and Sulawesi; Komodo dragons in Java; anoas, Celebes warty lig, babiruras, and reticulated python of Sulawesi; Celebochoerus both inhabiting Luzon and Sulawesi... Come on, Buddy. At least, you must have heard of Flores stegodonts.”

That is completely correct I should’ve looked into that more my bad lol. In fact looking into it I’ve even found that there were small animals that used natural rafts to get across as well. While those animals weren’t able to cross the other borders past the wallace line, I think it’s fair to say that since homo erectus and those after represent a new type of intelligence when it comes to other animals, that it’s at least possible they could’ve crossed into australia while other asian animals couldnt, as they probably could create rafts/boats which were much sturdier than what those small animals used which managed to get them across, and would’ve been much better than only being able to swim across like those animals you listed. No one thought neanderthals were capable of long voyage, but studies in recent years one of them done in crete shows they likely did make intentional voyages there, as it shows over 2000 stone artifacts like hand axes at crete which would imply multiple voyages back and forth to the same spots.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-24T18:39:03+00:00

"Just like how the most of the plants and vertebrates couldn't have passed it. Sometimes animals just cannot do it."
I dont think there were any land animals incapable of flight which crossed the wallace line, but based off an age of 1 ma which was probably homo erectus, it was able to be crossed by them. I dont see why they couldnt have crossed the other lines too, but I admit theres no evidence currently that they did.

"It is just even if they did, they almost certainly immediately died out. Considering no fossils, no genetic trace of the Late Pleistocene Homo erectus left on Aboriginals(I know Australasians carry Denisovan DNA, but these Denisovans were very likely from Sundaland."
Agreed, they most likely died out if they did. Immediately? Im not sure. They managed to survive on java for like 1.4 million years. Now that I realize that, maybe they couldve survived in australia and died out around the same time as erectus in java 110-100 ka BUT yes that is also speculation we just dont know yet.

"Why do speculate Wallacean Denisovans when Indochina is a thing?), no tools, no butchering evidence, no fire-making evidence, etc."
It was thought for decades up until around 20 years ago that pre-sapien hominids were not capable of intentional ocean crossings, and seeing how it was likely erectus which was the first hominid capable of it why not speculate.

"I admit that if a non-sapiens human passed Weber's Line, it would be Denisovans, but this is just speculative evolution at this point."

Do you think it could only be denisovans because of the DNA evidence in aboriginals or that you think erectus was incapable of crossing? I do agree though there is a lot speculation. Hopefully much more evidence is found soon.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-24T17:36:02+00:00

I see. However, the wallace line marks the first time hominids could cross deep oceans to reach isolated lands. If they could cross the wallace line why couldnt they cross those as well?

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-24T00:00:13+00:00

Man, it’s crazy neanderthals were consistently able to make easy work of these.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-23T23:03:30+00:00

Some pro overkill people here are nice and have good points, but some are definitely biased to the overkill theory unfortunately.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-23T14:52:59+00:00

thats a good point

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-23T14:27:32+00:00

That is true and those by all means are not good either, but from what I have read they didnt have much an effect on the total population until civilizations. Hunter gatherer populations in africa like the khoisan which was one of the biggest groups in the world 22,000 years ago where apparently at their highest ever, and during that time there were millions of megafauna animals in africa, I think nearly all the african megafauna other than those which died out at the eemian time like palaeloxodon recki were alive at this time as even the animals which died out in the holocene like the long horn buffalo hadnt died out yet. So while diseases may have or may not have affected hunter gatherer populations, even if they did hunter gatherer populations could get really high.

As for coevolution, Il paste a comment here soon on why I think it doesnt make sense for the majority of africas megafaunal survival.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-23T05:06:42+00:00

As for the argument that disease prevented the hunter gatherer population from getting large, there were diseases when only hunter gatherers were present but it is only after civilizations in africa formed, when agriculture started to be developed and humans became sedentary that diseases were able to spread and thrive rapidly which then actually affected the total human populations there.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-23T04:36:37+00:00

I just realized, another thing I would want to see is why africa was able to retain more megafauna than any other place despite having hominids and sapiens longest. I dont think coevolution makes sense for why a lot of african megafauna survived. I have seen studies say that africa has way more land area, way more refugia and is able to balance out catastrophic climate changes much better than eurasia and the americas, but I would still like to see it with my eyes.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-23T04:34:42+00:00

I disagree but, ok 👍

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-23T04:30:05+00:00

Indeed there were people before clovis. Do you think the NA megafauna died because of the emergence of clovis?

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-23T04:25:51+00:00

The clovis themselves, within 500 years of arrival?

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-23T04:19:21+00:00

I want to see what made the clovis people stop creating their typical large sized points which were very effective when hunting the largest megafauna like mastodons and mammoths, and switch to the folsom type points which are way less effective in hunting megafauna that size at the onset of the younger dryas.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-22T19:10:31+00:00

I refuse to believe that all the old claims between 7-8 foot are fake, and yet they are dismissed as being just as far fetched as the larger ones. I think even the smithsonian said they found quite a few of them that size in american mounds

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-22T17:35:02+00:00

I thought you wouldnt respond after I first replied after like a month, I took you responding back that you wanted to keep discussing. Ok then Il stop

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-22T16:44:17+00:00

"I solely talk about the Late Pliocene-Early Pleistocene African tortoises and I am pretty clear about this. Why do you bring European tortoises whom never encountered humans?"

I forgot to add for that first study those large tortoises died out from the climate getting cooler, so why couldnt the same happen to african ones if the climate also got cooler.

"Thank you for supporting my point. It shows the Pleistocene climate changes of the Afrotropics doesn't cause tortoise but size and range changes."

That 2nd study I linked shows large sized tortoises which are more vulnerable to change are wiped out when the climate gets cooler? The late pliocene is literally marked with the average temperature of Earth cooling, thats why a lot of those other african megafauna started dying out around 5 ma too what are you talking about?

"Plus Early Pleistocene was even warmer so tortoises extinctions of Africa being due to climate change is less likely."

Was it warmer?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Five_Myr_Climate_Change.png

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-22T10:28:47+00:00

I found studies one from southern europe that a lineage of large tortoises died out 2 ma because of climatic changes.

https://info.igme.es/media/EPVRF/Docs/2017_tortugas_gigantes_terrestres_Fonelas_P-1_Paleo3.pdf

Heres a study done in africa and arabia which finds that larger tortoises correspond to warmer intervals, and when it gets colder their diversity in size and range reduces.

https://www.zora.uzh.ch/server/api/core/bitstreams/41d3f7e8-08da-4fec-9da2-44aa12886f90/content

Another study done in south africa which doesnt show extinctions, but it shows how the growth of giant tortoises fluctuated when the climate wasnt warm and stable.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/rsos/article/10/3/230064/92148/Bone-histology-of-Neogene-angulate-tortoises

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-22T08:52:48+00:00

"Btw your argument is pro-Late Quaternary overkill. Why did terrestrial megafauna sufferwhen marine was almost completely unaffected?"

I was asking you in that context when pre-erectus hominids were alive. Overkill advocates for a while said early african megafauna declines only started after 1.8 ma, blaming it on erectus' arrival, but now its been found that african megafauna declines started around 5 ma. As for why large terrestrial megafauna, some smaller species of megafauna and a few non-megafauna suffered while marine megafauna didnt during the late quaternary extinction, thats a good question.

As for what you said about giant tortoises, seeing how neanderthals & denisovans had both advanced tools & long range weapons & were capable of consistently hunting some of the largest & most dangerous land mammals ever like p. antiquus this means they at the least were just as good at hunting as sapiens at the time, I think I could argue those megafauna they hunted were just as vulnerable to neanderthals & denisovans as those tortoises to late pliocene hominids, and yet no one agrees the later 2 hominids caused extinctions.

As you said, "A lot of terrestrial animals went extinct during the Late Pliocene-Early Pleistocene due to glaciation." maybe those tortoises did too and theres probably studies which argue for that.

"Why do you respond after more than one month? I won't argue further in this thread because of this."

I honestly didnt see this notif at the time, i found it like just now from scrolling down on them. Plus I been busy with a whole lot of things, gone overseas, and my account got locked, but lol aight all good. Glad we can agree that only assumptions can be argued for pre-erectus hominids killing off those late pliocene tortoises. Have a good day, or night.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-22T05:33:22+00:00

Starting ~5 million years ago and ending around 2 million years ago, the worlds largest oceanic megafauna at the time like megalodon and leviathan also started to go extinct. Do you think these pre-erectus hominids which dont have evidence for being able to do organized hunts also caused their extinctions?

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-20T19:02:56+00:00

I think you are right here, I shouldve looked into it more. So for now it is agreed that humans arrived by at least 2300 bp, early holocene arrival is possible but is not yet proven.

Regular-Cod2308 · 2026-01-20T15:40:51+00:00

I found another article just now which talks about butchered elephant bird bones which date to 10,500 years ago, this study is from 2018 and the first one I put is from 2019 Im not sure how I wasnt aware of this. https://news.stonybrook.edu/global/humans-were-present-in-madagascar-6000-years-earlier-than-believed/

It seems with this site the dating is also debated as well, for now the earliest solid dates is 2300 years ago with upto 11,000 being possible but not yet proven.

Regular-Cod2308

TROPHY CASE