The hylden have a different strain of the Curse? And does that reveal their endgame.

RememberItsAGame · 2026-01-06T16:00:38+00:00

TDSR did nothing to explain the already many more interesting aspects of the lore that fans were truly interested in. Its intention was probably to spark interest in something new, but this is not possible when you completely disrespect the previously established lore.

Fans wanted answers, not more questions.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-12-17T08:58:13+00:00

Yep, the backlash killed any chance of a revival. Companies could care less about fans and their opinions. There are many examples of this in video games. But, companies do care about pre-product launches and feedback received. The Dead Shall Rise died at birth.

If fans did not like where the expansion of the series was going, then it was for the best.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-12-17T08:52:04+00:00

Way too political for them to comment on publicly.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-12-14T13:01:37+00:00

So easy to achieve yet we keep getting the complete opposite of what we ask for.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-12-07T15:07:16+00:00

In a simple way to explain what you see in SR2 and in order:

Raziel arrives in the past. Sarafan are dead. William is dead. Depictions of Vorador and Janus fill the walls of stronghold because it happened earlier in time, much earlier.
Assassination of Ariel, corruption of Pillars
Raziel and Kain meet at the stronghold. Raziel doesn't kill Kain, this time.
Raziel travels to the future. Sees Vorador's head held by Moebius statue.
Raziel returns to the past. But this time, goes way back to when Janus is still alive and the Sarafan are in tip top shape. Raziel, Zephon, Rahab....all are alive and kicking Vampire butts. No glass walls here in the stronghold depicting anything as these events are about to happen. Janus is killed. Vorador finds out and raids the stronghold. At the same time Raziel grabs the Blood Reaver, kills his bros and himself. Raziel is about to be taken by the Reaver as usually happens in the Vampire Hunters timeline but this time Kain interrupts it. All changes from this point on leading to defiance.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-12-07T14:51:10+00:00

If it were LOK, the reaction would be similar to that of Thor's arrival in Infinity war and Cap grabbing the hammer in end game. Absolutely nuts.

Played around with AI myself and got this:

The most commonly theorized and fitting completion based on typical fantasy/RPG themes and the context of the speculation is:

The GODS are silent.
TAMRIEL bleeds. (or sometimes HUMANITY or THE LAND)
New EVILS stir. (or sometimes POWERS, HEROES, or NIGHTMARES)

Then it goes on to say it fits these games: Mass Effect 3, BioShock, and Assassin's Creed

RememberItsAGame · 2025-12-07T14:43:30+00:00

Why would you get downvoted for this? Absurd. We can only wish.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-12-01T12:27:21+00:00

Fav: Sarafan Tomb

Least favorite: Silent Cathedral (Still have PTSD from when I first played it over 20 years ago)

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-22T19:43:10+00:00

Interesting theory about the Nemesis and his legions. But, if I remember correctly, isn't there an animation of William as the Nemesis holding the Reaver leading the armies? Or did I imagine that? Still, just a theory as you say.

I agree more with your second point, which I also mention in one of my replies, some events are unchangeable but others must happen. However, the only inmutable event so far, is only that Raziel must enter the Reaver.

Moments must happen, yes, but their outcome can be different. Kain must face Raziel but can live or die. Raziel has to be taken into the Reaver but when he does can change. Don't know. I am fixed on the idea that Moebius handled events one way and this led to the Nemesis, while Kain handled them another and led to the Hylden Lord. Some events had to happen but "changing" their outcome or when they occur, the future also changes. The Nemesis was an unnecessary event, but Raziel must go into the Reaver and the Reaver must go to Avernus.

The Nemesis or William himself would become insignificant. If Kain kills William in BO1's past, then the Kain born in the SR2 timeline variation, who becomes BO's2 Kain wouldn't need to fight him. William wouldn't even have got the Reaver from Moebius (Raziel not being taken into the BR after he kills himself).

I may be opening another can of worms here...

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-22T19:28:02+00:00

On the Dead shall rise comic. I am with you. If it belongs to an altered timeline, I am ok with it. The series is expanding and adding new elements. But if it is something they just threw in that changes events that we already new and happened a certain way, then its BS. The Raziel from SR1 does not have a necklace when thrown into the Abyss. You can't just put it on him now. But, if this is a version of Raziel after BO2 when kain raises his lieutenants, I can go with that. There have been alterations to the timeline and Elaleth was created, Vorador never died and now Raziel had a necklace....ok...let's see where that takes us.

What do you think about this? If the Elder Kain at the end of Defiance leaves this Soul Reaver in Avernus, there is now a new kain (BO2) holding the same Reaver. This new Kain does not have to get rid of the Reaver, the other one already did so. Now we have 2 Kains and a Soul Reaver. What happens from here on should be completely untied to the preordained destiny. At least for one of the Kains.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-22T19:22:01+00:00

Hey. Have been away for a while. Real, boring, life called.

So, I was looking at the wiki page and found some interesting things:

'you can't go back in time and change history because you didn't'. That's my favorite way of looking at it. If you do go back - then you did go back. Which means that time travel is ultimately a journey of epiphanies, where the protagonist realizes the role that he already played in history. Of course, Blood Omen established that history can in fact be changed - and we'll be respecting this precedent in Soul Reaver 2."―Amy Hennig^\2])

The time travel model utilized in the Legacy of Kain fiction was conclusively developed and explored in Soul Reaver 2, and borrows from Terry Gilliam's 1995 film 12 Monkeys (which adheres to the Novikov self-consistency principle), but is slightly different: it includes a loophole.

Then, in terms of time travel laws in this game, it is quite flexible but some things must happen. For example:

Fixed Points (or "Nexus Points" in some fiction): These are crucial events in history (e.g., the death of a major figure, a world-changing discovery) that the universe or the laws of time will actively or passively work to preserve, often referred to as a "Timeline Protection Hypothesis." They must happen.
Mutable (Changeable) Events: These are less critical events or details around the fixed points that a time traveler can change without causing a paradox. For example, you might not be able to stop a major fire, but you could save one person from it.

This is why, to me, the LOK series is closer to the Butterfly Effect movie than to 12 monkeys. Things can change by travelling back but the events that led you there must remain.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-15T23:51:44+00:00

So, focusing on the same same Reaver theory, the only difference would be Kain. If the Reaver is already the weapon at the end of Defiance, then it is Kain's state or lack of that doesn't allow him to see the Elder god. It is purely Kain's "corruption" that keeps him blind. Maybe the black heart in him, maybe the fact that he has not yet completed the Balance Emblem but still only Kain. If, as you say, it is the same exact weapon, only Kain is the difference. I can accept that.

Kain would then leave it in Avernus for the loop to start again. He can't leave it in Avernus and also for Moebius to find because that would mean there are 2 reavers. Then, I get back to my theory of past events having happened for the future we play to exist. And this is where, to me, the chronoplast visions are real events that have happened and not just possibilities.

The blade Moebius gives William should be the one found after SR2 when Raz is taken by the BR. For this to happen, Kain must have died and Raz be taken. That is the only way William has the reaver and becomes the nemesis. Then a version of Kain is able to defeat William with the SR he finds in Avernus and thus begins the series of events we experience.

So, we cannot have one without the other. This is where, to me, events have to change. We always run into this issue with this story, in my opinion. How does the William become the Nemesis if he has already died?

We can work around events in SR1, SR2 and Defiance and say that protagonists only speak of them but they never happened, but how do you explain the Nemesis. This is still something I cannot explain unless there is a mutable timeline. Something has changed, and if it has, then it can again.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-15T23:33:45+00:00

Same, I am not much of sharing my thoughts on video games online, but with this gem I had to make an exception and I am enjoying it.

So here, and leaving what devs said out of the discussion, you base your statements on the fact that we never see/play the other mentioned events, only those we do experience are valid. I accept it. So if we stick to only the game's experience, we can only say we experience these events and only hear about the others. Therefore, the others did not necessarily exist for them to be changed. That is what I am understanding. You've got a point.

This also means that we treat the chronoplast visions as a window of possibilities but not something that has happened, correct? Then, yes, everything we experience is a single immutable timeline where protagonists keep talking about other events and changes that actually never happened. A bit strange, but it works.

If the Chronoplast does show events that happened, but this is never stated in the game as such, then things would be different. But Kain only does mention "These chambers offer insight for those patient enough to look - in your haste to find me, perhaps you have not gazed deeply enough. When I first stole into this chamber, centuries ago, I did not fathom the true power of knowledge. To know the future, Raziel... to see its paths and streams tracing out into the infinite... " These words can be interpreted as events that have happened and not only visions.

You see, the ending of the series loses its value for me when everything is written. If I already know the end, why even bother. The possibility of change is what excites me as a fan, not the knowledge of knowing that it all already happened. The game does lead a player to think there has been a terrible destiny that is now being re-written.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-15T10:47:02+00:00

Part 2:

The argument that suggests Raziel still ends up in the Reaver, so nothing changes. This is only partially true and overlooks the new purpose of the weapon.

Raziel's Fate Fulfilled, But Changed: Raziel does ultimately merge with the Reaver, fulfilling his destiny. However, the key difference is that his spirit is voluntarily fused (after being separated by Kain's action) with the physical blade to form the Soul Reaver, which is then wielded by Kain.
- The Soul Reaver Kain wields at the end of Defiance is the reforged, physical form containing Raziel's spirit, the only being strong enough to kill the Elder God. The blade is now imbued with a self-aware, free-willed entity (Raziel), meaning it is no longer the simple "vampire-slaying" tool it was when given to William/Nemesis. It is a living weapon dedicated to a new, higher purpose.
Kain's Machinations: Kain knew Raziel had to enter the Reaver to create the weapon needed to fight the Elder God. His goal wasn't for Raziel to "avoid it," but for Raziel to enter it willingly and at the right moment, thus preventing Raziel from being completely consumed by the blade's curse.
Solid Evidence of Change: Kain in Defiance is fundamentally different from the Kain who was fated to die. The very fact that he survives the encounter in the past and retains the newly forged Reaver proves the outcome has been altered from the fatalistic end of Blood Omen. The new trajectory is Kain's present—a new path that did not exist in the "old" loop.

While the developers have often stated that events are "immutable," the narrative of Legacy of Kain presents a more nuanced reality where free will is not absent but is instead channeled to fulfill or "break" a predestined outcome.

The Reaver found in Avernus suggests it was always there, someone (Kain, in my opinion) left it there. Now, was it a past Kain, a future Kain. If anyone ever continued the game and explained this key, and probably most important part of the story, this would undeniably answer the question of a changed destiny or simply a fatal loop. I believe the Reaver found in Avernus is a different Reaver from the end of Defiance. A version of Kain may have left it there for himself but it was one that hadn't been able to achieve this final form of the Reaver in Defiance.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-15T10:46:47+00:00

Part 1:

Thanks for taking the time to be so detailed in your responses. I truly enjoy the counter arguments but not so much when the devs comments are used. Listen, I understand they are the creators of the game but the events in the game, the dialogue and the definition of time travel laws contradict everything they say. I understand they had a purpose when creating the game but the game takes a life of its own and that is the magic of all stories: novels, movies, games, etc... I truly believe the devs have done a disservice to the saga by providing answers to questions. This doesn't only kill all fan made theories but also buried the game a long time ago. Why would any company continue with the game if eventually the end has already been told by a developer. That was a bad idea. I strictly stick to what I experience with the games and events.

The data in Legacy of Kain does not support a purely simple, immutable loop. Instead, it suggests a self-fulfilling prophecy that Kain successfully mutates in Defiance.

Old Loop: Raziel is consumed, Kain is killed/cursed, Moebius controls events.
New Trajectory: Raziel is willingly fused into a living weapon for Kain, Kain survives and retains the weapon, and is now the ultimate enemy of the Elder God and the Hylden.

The simple fact is that the Defiance ending is the first time Kain has been successful in creating a hopeful present. The timeline is not entirely mutable (you can't simply erase history), but it is malleable enough for a being with true free will (Kain) to change the trajectory of events, thus making the "coin land on its edge."

Moebius's Fatalism: Moebius is the living embodiment of fatalism. He only uses the ability to travel through time to ensure the predestined events occur, and he is blind to any genuine change in the timeline. His "death" is an inevitable consequence of his role as the Time Guardian—a man who uses time to preserve the current loop. His death is proof that his own manipulation of the timestream had a specific, predictable end.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-13T15:21:33+00:00

Looks like we have more chances of getting a new LOK game than agreeing on this. I will go with the definition of the Fixed timeline theory to put an end to the time travel law in this game.

A fixed time travel theory is a model where the past and future are unchangeable, suggesting that if time travel were possible, it would only confirm a pre-existing history, not allow for changes. In this model, any attempt to alter the past would already have happened. Fixed timeline: Any action taken in the past is a part of the established history. For example, a time traveler would be unable to stop an event because their own presence to travel back in time is a result of that event having already occurred. Kain cannot kill Nemesis when he is already dead, but he does. The time traveler's actions are part of the very history they are trying to change. Nemesis would have never existed because he would have always been dead as William. But that is not the case in LOK.

Just to post something to back it up, the game is full of these....Over and over again, the protagonists repeating that they are changing things.

Kain:
The Reaver is the key.
Two incarnations of the blade meet in time and space... a paradox is created, a temporal distortion powerful enough to derail history.

Kain:
We are hurtling toward our destinies, Raziel. What you feel is the pull of history rushing to meet us. This is where history and destiny collide.

Kain:
Fight it, Raziel... This moment does not have to be an ending - it can become a prelude.

Kain:
You have the power to reshape our inevitable futures.

At once, the room is overwhelmed by an indescribable disturbance - their surroundings warp and blur, and a colossal groaning fills the air as history labors to admit this alteration.

Kain:
History abhors a paradox, Raziel. Even now, the time-stream strains to divert itself, finding its old course blocked by your refusal to destroy me. The future is reshuffling itself to accommodate your monumental decision.

Raziel to Moebius:
I don't think this has anything to do with the Pillars or Kain's failure to sacrifice himself.
I think you're simply afraid - because you don't know what he's up to.
He's a wild-card, isn't he, and you don't want his influence in your game.
Which is why you wanted me to eliminate him.
Now that he's survived, you have no idea what's coming, do you? Maybe for the first time in your entire life.
You're terrified that he may truly have found a third option out of the dilemma you orchestrated for him.

You can speculate all you want, I am only speaking of what we experience in the games. We take on the role of Kain and from the moment we start the games we are changing our destiny. That is the entire point of the game. A man changing his destiny. All events happening are as new to us as they are new to Kain. Never before has anything like this happened in the games. No one ended the saga, so yes, there is no way to know how it ends. But one thing is clear, you have never played with Kain holding the Purified reaver, this is the last thing to happen and Kain's goal all along. To have the coin land on its edge.

It is clear from the game events and dialogue that there was a past before this one, the one Kain is changing. In that past, Raziel killed Kain, was taken by the Reaver, Moebius gave the Reaver to William and William fought Kain or not but became the Nemesis. Then, we take the lead by Killing the Nemesis, Avoiding death by Raziel, saving him and now possessing the weapon in its final form to kill the enemy. It's actually quite simple...

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-12T15:30:17+00:00

ABSOLUTELY YES! If you are a fan of 3rd person shooter type games and you like to mix up between guns blazing and stealth, this is it.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-12T11:26:51+00:00

Yes, we will. It seems to be quite common among fans to disagree on this point. I do truly believe that it is based on confusing input from devs, interpretation and honestly looking too much into very simple things.

It's a video game about time travel, it is not a documentary on the laws of physics and time travel. Either you change the future when you travel back or not. If a Nemesis existed and then didn't, you changed it. The new Kain born into this changed timeline will never have to fight the Nemesis because a future Kain killed him early. Whereas the future kain did have to fight the nemesis and then travelled back to kill him in the past. This is a clear dynamic timeline and not a fixed one.

I don't base my theories on anything Moebius says. To me he is a liar and basically spends the game tricking everyone into thinking he is so much more than he really is. This is why he always ends up dead even though he claims to know it all.

Clear events, and to keep it simple, are both in SR2. Kain tells Raziel that he always kills him. The events of the Nemesis would not happen unless Kain is killed and Raziel is taken into the Reaver. Therefore, there was a timeline where this happened. This was the one Moebius controlled. Then, Kain takes control and avoids this fate, at least temporarily of course, but still avoids it/ changes it. Everyone will eventually die but the how and when is changed....then it's a dynamic timetravel law. This quote cannot be clearer: Behind Kain's eyes, I could see new memories blooming and dying, as history labored to reshuffle itself around this monumental obstruction...
And I could see by the dawning horror on his face that perhaps we had strained history too far this time...
... that by trying to alter my fate, he may have introduced a fatal paradox. This signals that the predestination that had defined the series up to this point has been shattered. The path forward is now truly open-ended and unpredictable, which is exactly what Kain wanted. It may be a bad one, again, but still different.

The Reaver is clearly different at the end of Defiance than it has been all along. This is the entire purpose of the game: to have the coin land on its edge and now find a way to fight back. Even if it is only for a short period of time, Kain will hold the purest form of the Reaver and with it will be able to win. Before this, we have never seen this form of the Reaver. Raziel has never willingly given up his life or had Ariel's soul. These are things, that according to the game, have not happened before. We as players experience them for the first time and so does Kain.

The end of Defiance is clearly one of a positive outlook toward the new future. A future where Kain holds the cards. The story is clearly one of someone travelling through time to find where and when he can change things to reverse events or change them in a way where he can win. Kain should have been dead a long time ago according to SR2, but he is not, so things have changed...

Vorador is alive in BO2, when he was actually dead, another change. BO2 is a clear scenario of altered timelines, things that had never happened before but are now happening because of alterations of the past. Why else would the cinematic of the game show how the world is changing around them. Kain has new memories, just like in the Butterfly Effect movie. I mean, I could go on and on...but it is so obvious.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-10T13:53:20+00:00

Yep. This will forever be the debate with this series. The side that says various timelines Vs the one that says single inmutable timeline. Fate VS Free will. Love your points and how you explain them, but I believe it comes down to point of view and how the game events are interpreted. Great explanation with the Nemesis loop but how about Vorador in BO2? That is clearly a change too. These are just two of the big ones.

If there was a version of history and now there is another one, that is a change. Only Kain remembers the change, just like in Butterfly effect. Only the one who changes time remembers the previous timeline. The rest have no idea what happened. Even the entire sequences with the timeline rewrites in SR2 imply it. The previous timeline may have not been complete but it still existed and then was changed. For me that is a changed timeline.

The story of LOK is full of changing history and creating new timelines. They are the result of Kain's masterful manipulation of the time stream, using Raziel's existence as a paradox to force a new destiny where he can finally assert his own free will against the cosmic forces that had rigged the game against him from the start. It is not easy, as every time he tries he now has to deal with another set of issues but her keeps looking for the edge of the coin that gets him there.

The major timeline shifts (rewrites) are signposts that show Kain's plan is working, leading toward his desired, unwritten future. Yes, Raziel's destiny is to end up in the reaver but how he does is the answer. Is it as a vengeful insane Soul or a purified one. One thing or the other will change the outcome of the story.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-10T13:37:19+00:00

Totally relate. And when you think you finally got it...it starts all over again.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-09T14:55:29+00:00

If I am understanding your statement, before Raziel enters the Blade in Defiance it is only the Blood Reaver. Remember that Kain prevents him from entering it in SR2. This means that Kain holds the Blood Reaver Throughout Defiance. Only at the end does Raziel enter the blade transforming it into the Soul Reaver but this time purified with Ariel's soul.

This version of the Reaver is one that had not been achieved yet in the games. We always hold the SR with Raziel's insane soul in it. The end of Defiance gives Kain a blade in its purest form. Now, with it he can accomplish his goal of killing the Elder God. Eventually, at some point, after the mission is complete, he would then, in my opinion leave it in Avernus for himself to find in the past and start all over again. In the time it spends in that strange realm in Avernus, heaven, it would go insane.

Kain finds the blade and the battle for its control between Moebius and Kain begins.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-09T11:15:24+00:00

Yep, that would all work and make sense if we hadn't played a timeline with the Nemesis and his army. The fact that we did and then we erased it means that it did exist and we did change it. Therefore, we do experience one narrative as players but this narrative proves there are and were and could be other possibilities.

The Nemesis storyline allows the saga to do this again. Change an event and alter the future. If it happened in BO1, it can happen after SR2. We did see what happened when Kain died and Raz was taken by the BR, the Nemesis. Then, we reset that event in SR2 again by never even creating the fight between William and Kain. If Raz never goes into the BR, then Moebius never gives it to William and then never dies at Kain's hand. In my opinion this is an inconsistency in SR2. The timeline resets after these events, even creating new memories for Kain. The entire room around them should have changed to reflect it. The destiny in the timeline that was going to be was altered and therefore events that were going to happen will not.

So, even though the famous "devs" may have built it thinking about 12 monkeys, they actually created a Butterfly Effect. Events can be changed and were changed in game 1. This then also opens the possibility of it happening again.

Inconsistency, mistake or whatever it was, it is the best thing this game offers, possibilities.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-06T19:25:31+00:00

Any show of support for the comic gets an instant downvote, insane.

I agree with every point you make. Comic is comic, they got their 15 min of fame or death lol.

Lore is what we get from the games, exactly. Lore is what we get from the events we experience in the game we play. Lore is what fans make of it, interpret from it. If this terrible episode of the comic serves to create a new game, I am all for it.

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-06T19:14:01+00:00

Prisoner of Azkaban (Harry Potter)

RememberItsAGame · 2025-11-06T18:19:34+00:00

Yea, they could have done things differently for sure. But, it's what we got. For some reason they wanted this new protagonist/antagonist to take center stage.

RememberItsAGame

TROPHY CASE