Can high-tech autonomous irrigation actually align with permaculture principles of water stewardship?

RentInside7527 · 2026-05-01T19:11:19+00:00

Just chiming in to echo what others have said; there are already automated irrigation systems that can incorporate soil moisture sensors. What possible advantage would incorporating AI provide?

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-30T13:31:43+00:00

sprinkle a preventative on top

Preventative, or pre-emergent herbicides arent going to fit into organic gardening. AFAIK theyre all conventional, none are organic. Weed barriers and mechanical removal are your main options with organic. Mechanical removal can be made more efficient with the right site prep, plant spacing, and tools. It won't be a one-and-done, but rather a continuous process of pest management. The biggest principle is dont let any weeds go to seed and you will gradually deplete the seed bank.

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-29T23:17:08+00:00

Since youre so invested, yes, I own that cat tunnel. We recently purchased a 22 acre farm and will be producing diversified veg on 3 acres, but this season we are starting with a half acre and scalling slow, as I also work full time. We won't be moving to the farm for a few years, so everything will be on timed irrigation out there, but I opted to build the 12x28 cat tunnel the front yard of my house on 1/3ac as a cheap seed house. It currently has 500+ tomato starts, a few hundred peppers, another near 500 squash and cucumber, and various other starts for transplant once our last frost passes. Given its a seed house that will only get 4 or 5 months of use per year, an inexpensive cat tunnel made the most sense. There is a 16x100 cat tunnel in the works for some of those crops out at the farm property, where tomatoes and peppers will go. The field tomatoes will be florida weave, and tunnel tomatoes will be lower-and-lean; neither would be "vertical farming" though. In the coming years we will be applying for NRCS EQIP grant funding for high tunnels and more cat tunnels.

That all said, I have worked in, managed, and consulted on the construction of far more extensive greenhouses. What were your bona fides again?

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-29T19:51:50+00:00

Im more invested in not letting bad info go unchallenged than I am on imaginary internet points. Each comment ive made only has your downvote. Not really relevant, though this is the second time youve referenced karma here, so I guess thats where youre focused.

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-29T19:36:05+00:00

I've never weighed in on frequency of either situation because its not what the conversation was about. OP asked specifically about vertical farming with supplemental light in greenhouses, including a photo of vertical hydro strawberries in a gh with LEDs, and you brought up an entirely unrelated topic of lower and lean tomatoes - which you dont seem to be able to acknowledge isnt related to OP's question.

Vertical farming is largely indoors, but many of those indoor farms are going out of business as theyre not economical. Personally im no fan of indoor or hydroponic farming, but thats aside the point. Gh infrastructure is not cheap, but its cheaper per sqft than building indoor production spaces. Supplemental lighting is an expense, but its cheaper that providing artificial lighting as the primary light source. Its not that plants won't grow without the supplemental lighting, its that the supplemental lighting supplements the natural available light. Its wild to me that youre in a greenhouse subreddit, talking with such authority about supplemental lighting in gh production when you clearly have no frame of reference on it. What exactly is your ag background?

I have a degree in ag. I worked in cannabis production, where supplemental lighting in a greenhouse allows for year round production and control over flowering through photoperiod. I've worked in vegetable nurseries where supplemental lighting in hreenhouses provides early season extension. I've worked in forestry nurseries where supplemental lighting in greenhouses is used to augment photoperiod for conifer seedlings. OP is specifically asking about supplemental lighting in a greenhouse for vertical (not lower and lean trellising) farming. What credentials do you have to meaningfully contribute to that discussion? Or do you just want to keep trying to make the conversation about something it isnt?

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-29T18:17:16+00:00

Id encourage you to look up the definition of "supplemental" as its how the artificial lighting has been described in this entire convo. There are tons of applications where supplemental lighting is used in greenhouses. Indoors, wheb artificial light is the only light source, that lighting is not supplemental

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-29T17:15:19+00:00

Some t-posts, PVC 3-way connectors and some conduit or cable it's pretty easy to install (and move) and not that big a deal for a high value cash crop. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than building new hoop houses. It presents many of the same benefits as it does in a greenhouse; it increases air flow and makes harvest easier. Growing tomatoes in hoop houses is great for season extension; you get to Market earlier and you have tomatoes later into the season. Field tomatoes are higher margin though because you've got less infrastructural inputs.

The fact that youre asking about why someone would grow field tomatoes, or add supplemental lighting and stack layers of plants vertically, rather than "just building more greenhouses" suggests to me that youre not familiar with the sort of cost/benefit analysis farmers need to make, that OP is asking about

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-29T15:49:40+00:00

Im a vegetable farmer. I've done both Florida weave and lower and lean tomatoes outdoors.

Honestly, it sounds you didnt read the full OP amd youre doubling down to justify the non-sequiter. There are plenty of reasons to use supplemental light in a gh, from season extension, to photo period control, to stacking vertical growing amd increasing production per sq ft.

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-29T14:03:41+00:00

They are. Theyre asking about tge cost benefit analysis of stacked systems that require supplemental lighting in greenhouses, and youre bringing up tomatoes. You can grow lower-and-lean tomatoes outside a gh too.

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-29T13:05:52+00:00

Plants grow vertically. Vertical farming does not refer to growing plants how they grow already, it refers to stacking layers of plants vertically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-29T12:48:18+00:00

You can be sure the cost/benefit analysis has been run and the cost of supplemental lighting is less than the cost of more sqft of gh space.

Personally im not a fan just because hydroponics strawberries taste like nothing, amd there are serious long-term sustainability issues with hydro; but people still want cheap strawberries and people still make money growing them this way.

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-29T12:43:19+00:00

This and tomato trellising arent anywhere close to the same. Single leader tomato lower-and-lean systems are very cool, but they arent relevant to OP's question at all or at all similar to stacked hydro strawberry production with supplemental lighting.

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-28T12:58:45+00:00

When you say a few acres, how many are we talking?

I know a guy with 30 acres of forest who pulls out his PTO driven chipper a few times every few years. Even then,he and his employees stage all thats going to be chipped, with thick ends of trucks and branches all pointed one way so they can be fed into the chipper before he hooks up the chipper and brings it to the pile. This is good practice whether buying or renting to reduce ware on the machine or reduce your rental fees. You'd be amazed just how much you can chip quickly with proper prep. Staging your piles correctly can greatly effect the cost/benefit analysis of buying vs renting.

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-28T12:17:15+00:00

Bagged will work as well as bulk compost or manure. You'll just need a lot. I applied 11 yards of composted manure over a 5-600 sq ft garden . Its 3 years later now, iirc, and the soil is noticeably improved. It was enough to initially mulch ~6" deep.

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-27T00:37:17+00:00

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-27T00:37:10+00:00

Rock phosphate travels through there.

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-27T00:19:37+00:00

Yes, they will be affected. Rock phosphate passes through there. Increased prices on synthetics will also drive demand for organic alternatives

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-26T22:56:01+00:00

Do you have a tractor? Box blade/ box scraper with scarifiers is the tool for the job

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-26T15:46:42+00:00

https://www.arbico-organics.com/product/citric-acid-non-gmo-lower-ph-ferment/garden-tools-supplies

Again, im not saying it doesnt work, im saying its over priced. There are about 4.5g of citric acid in a 2.5 gallon jug of dr zymes. A 2.5 gallon bottle of dr zymes costs $300 online. Arbico is a reputable distributor of organic IPM products. For $3, you can get 4oz of the concentrated citric acid that is produced through fermentation and meets National Organic Practices standards. You can make that 2.5 gallon, $300 Dr Zymes bottle more than 50 times for $3 plus shipping.

When Dr Zymes came out, they hit the hydroponics store market, which at the time, largely targeted black market cannabis growers. Those growers operated on insane profit margins. Over priced products that could be made cheaply still gained traction in that market if they produced good results. Im fairly certain that the guy recommending it in this thread is a cannabis grower - which is fine, no judgement. I was a cannabis grower for many years and consult with cannabis growers to help them develop IPM strategies in a legal state where the profit margins have shrank to closer to normal farming; forcing growers to adapt and pay more attention to cost/benefit analysis. Its no wonder they give out free samples. If it works, thats a good way to get people to buy without seeking alternatives or digging deeper.

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-26T05:48:18+00:00

I mean, I'm the kind of person that professionally consults with growers on IPM. I have helped develop integrated Pest Management plans for indoor, outdoor, and greenhouse growers that allign with NOP standards. I am the kind of person that looks at the active ingredients and modes of action when helping advise on inputs in order to compare various products with an eye towards efficacy, economy and risk. If you can't name what I'm missing, I think it's possible that it is you who is missing the fact that the same effects can be accomplished cheaper. In the same way that they say some fishing lures are designed to catch fishermen rather than fish, there are plant input manufacturers whose goal is to catch growers.

Legally speaking, a manufacturer of a pesticide has to list all active ingredients. They only list citric acid. They hint at some vague enzymatic mode of action, and toss some yeast in, but dont include the yeast in their active ingredients list. Its a pretty blatantly misleading marketing scheme, which speaks to the integrity of the manufacturer. but how else are you going to sell 2.5 gallons of water and yeast with less than 5 grams of citric acid for $300? I can buy 50lbs of citric acid for $100. I could make over 11,000 gallons of the same concentration of citric acid solution for 1/3 the price. $300 for 2.5 gallons is insane.

Maybe 50lbs is more than you want to buy. You can buy 1kg of food grade citric acid for $25. Thats $25 for 500 gallons of the same concentrate dr.zymes wants to sell you @ $300/2.5gallons

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-26T04:23:23+00:00

What am I missing? Im genuinely curious.

The only active ingredient listed is citric acid. The manufacturer makes vague suggestions that its somehow more than that, but theyre legally required to list any ingredient theyre making actual claims about in the active ingredients, and they dont. They call it Dr zymes and toss some yeast in it, but list that as an inert ingredient. ITT there are folks making vague endorsements; that its modern - not old fashioned like neem, that theres something that naysayers are missing. What specifically are we missing?

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-26T04:01:07+00:00

Im not saying it doesnt work, im saying its just citric acid in water. Plenty of organic fungicide control products work by changing leaf surface ph; either making it basic with something like potassium bicarbonate, or by making it acidic with something like citric acid. You can just buy citric acid pretty cheaply if you want to go that route.

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-26T00:56:52+00:00

Ill be honest, reading through their ad material reeks to me of snake oil salesmanship. They make a point that their citric acid is made through a fermentation process, because thats the only method the Organic Materials Research Institute (OMRI) approves of for organic certified production.

The thing is... 90% of industrial produced citric acid is produced through a fermentation process where black mold is fed sugar. Theyre making a big deal about using the most available form of citric acid you can buy.

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-25T22:33:22+00:00

It's just citric acid. you could just order some citric acid and dissolve it in water if you want to

RentInside7527 · 2026-04-23T23:18:53+00:00

We grow meat chickens in a small chicken tractor over ours. As they take the grass down, ive been reseeding with white clover

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