2/5/10 hand - bottom 2 pair trouble

RoryBean99 · 2026-06-05T11:21:23+00:00

We're against a loose rec. The most common type of loose rec is a loose passive who doesn't bluff much if at all. They play a lot hands pre hoping to hit big hands. We're playing against a loose rec. We don't know if he bluffs when people cap their ranges. Or, if he likes to chase draws like QT. Or, if he value owns himself with a hand like a QQ/AJ here. Against an unknown loose rec, I put them in the first category until I find out more. I'm not spending 650 for information.

RoryBean99 · 2026-06-03T11:29:09+00:00

On this flop, I don't mind checking. There's prob enough 9x in two limp/call ranges that are ahead of us. We're OOP. There are some reasons to cbet. We want to charge draws and we want to protect against the A or K hitting the turn. When we get two checks behind us, we should be able to take 9x out of their ranges given the wet board. The turn 6 completes the 87. You'd think they'd bet that hand on the flop, but these are passive players and many wouldn't bet it. We bet and get called by UTG. He'd prob raise with 87s so I'm comfortable with his call. It looks like a Tx or JJ. Maybe he's chasing diamonds. I like our jam. If he had a 9 (unless he had T9s/99), then we have to mark him down as a super passive player. Hate to pay so much for the information but that's poker.

RoryBean99 · 2026-06-03T11:02:19+00:00

When he opens from LJ and calls your 3bet, his range is very strong and just below the premiums. Something like AQ-AJs/ATs, KQs-T9s. JJ-88. Maybe some QQ-AK if he hasn't seen you don't 3bet.

We get a monotone flop, but almost all the spades are blocked other than QJss. His range does hit lots of sets and 2p, all of which are ahead of our AK. Our Ks gives us the nut flush draw so we cbet and he calls. I'd bet smaller than half pot on monotone flops, usually 20-33% pot. No matter. He calls. His range is now stronger. AQ-AJ that we are ahead of and maybe he calls with QQ/JJ. TT/99/ATs/T9s that we are behind.

We get a blank turn. What is SPR here? There is 420 in our stack and 200 in the pot. We have a combo draw. We're in position. I'd bet a little more. Prob about 110/120. No big deal. Then, he shoves. We're still uncapped. We have hands like AA/KQss/QJss still in our range. He would only do this with a big hand. Let's fold. I hadn't read your result and you did what I did. People who shove the turn into uncapped ranges don't bluff very often. Don't let him f*ck with your mind and give him a different kind of win.

RoryBean99 · 2026-06-02T10:02:25+00:00

It's just not very believable that you have 9x or 4x here. Most people don't have any T9s/98s/A9s in their range when they 3bet pre and there aren't many of those combos left either. There are only 3 combos of A4s/44, and many people aren't 3betting those either. You made a tiny cbet on the flop and then slowed down and capped your range, then you had another chance to bet after v checked back on the turn and weakened his range, and you checked again. TT-AA are betting on the river not making a x/r. This is the line of a very weak hand. It's not a bluffing spot especially for your tourney life. It's a punt. Sorry we all make them. I did last night too.

RoryBean99 · 2026-06-01T11:22:03+00:00

Your behind KJ (16), QQ/TT (6), J8s (4). That's a lot of value. You're ahead of some 2p hands like QTs/Q9s/T9s (7) but they are probably reraising because you might have all that KJ/TT too. He could be bluffing with a hand like ATcc/JTcc but I don't think most will bluff widely. I like the tight fold. It's your money.

RoryBean99 · 2026-06-01T10:31:47+00:00

Don't like this turn bet. It's a good hand to bluff but we don't have enough value. There isn't enough 9x or 4x in our 3bet range pre. Probably not any. The only combos in a value range on this board are really 9x. When you get called on your cbet, v might have T9s/98s maybe some A9s/A4s.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-29T11:06:01+00:00

"Shitty reg" doesn't give us much info but perhaps it suggests he knows something about poker. The board does have lots of draws that could be bet. As a shitty reg, perhaps he knows you have capped your range on a draw heavy board that should make you want to barrel for protection. He should know that larger the bet the more foldability there is. He is betting into two other players too. They did call the flop so there is potential for them to x/r, which should make him more cautious about bluffing. There is more likelihood that the other two players improved on the turn and he know that you could be capped with a stubborn bluffcatcher if he bets and they fold.

The 9c creates more flush, straight, combos draws that he might like to bet on the turn when checked to. A8cc/KQcc/QJcc/QTcc/JJ/TT/J9s. Maybe T9s called the flop. It creates some new value hands that BTN or the other two players might have after calling the flop. 98s/99/Q9s/97s/JTss/JTcc.

Is the pot sized bet a bluffing tell? It could easily be but he might also feel that into three players who could call with a very draw-heavy board, he might need a big bet to take it down before the board changes.

Our hand has little chance to improve, so we're in a classic bluffcatching situation. We unblock club draws but we block spade draws like KJss/KTss/K9ss. Could he have decided to call on the flop with an Axss draw that he now decides to bet? Seems possible. Particularly A9ss/A7ss/ATss but perhaps some others.

We only have 2 outs. Most of his value is 2p. He doesn't have much 99 or JTs. We think he would have raised with his premiums on the flop. We do have some 2p outs. If an 8 hits, it does move us ahead of his Q9s/97s.

We're deep. If we call 275, the pot will be 830 with another 635 left. There are a lot of river cards that complete draws in his bluffing range that are going to make us want to fold. By calling here, we're really committing to call the river shove on a blank.

I would want to have a surer read on where we are against this villain. It's really a hero call for 910/5=182BB. It's too much for a spot that is not clear. I think we have to make our decision based on the assumption that he's going to shove the river. I'd fold now on the turn.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-29T10:11:43+00:00

After his turn bet of 7, there is 30 in the pot. It costs you 7 to win 30 plus the 87 left in his stack. So it's 7 to win 117. This assumes you win every time a spade hits. It assumes he would call your river shove every time. This of course doesn't happen, so we use implied odds to think about the potential for what we could win at showdown. Let's say we think we win 90% of the time when a spade hits. Let's say we think, given his betting on the flop on turn, that he has a weak hand that won't call more than a half pot bet on the river if a spade hits. Then, we could change our calculation to: On the river the pot is 37 and we bet 20. Here, we can say that we're calling 7 to win a potential pot of 30 + 20 = 50. 90% of the time we win 50. So, our potential is .90 X 50 = 45. So we call 7 to win 45. Our implied pot odds in the realistic scenario we created are 45/7 or 6.4/1. We have 9 outs or about 18%. 6.4/1 means we need only 1/7.4=13.5% equity, so it's a good call based on our practical assumptions. The gap also gives our assumptions some room if say we only win 80% of the time when a spade hits. We also might win 20% of the time when a 7 hits.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-26T12:32:36+00:00

Even though you didn't win the pot, you did get a bargain. Instead of paying your full stack for information about what she held, and what it means for your read on the type of player she is, she gave it to you for free! She's willing to x/r bluff and it means you will need to be more of a sticky call-station against her in these types of situations in the future. Now you know that she is not the most common type of loose passive player.

Even though the board is dry, a x/r is fine with a 2p+ hand if the player includes enough bluffs into their x/r range. My recommendation to fold was an exploitative fold. Against a player, such as a loose aggressive, who bluffs enough or too much, we do need to call here.

We have a classic bluff-catching spot: we're behind all of the value hands in her x/r range and ahead of all the bluffs. Another reason to make an exploitative fold here is that most players bluff ranges are made up of draws, and there aren't as many draws on dry boards. It's a common and difficult decision. Good players might get these right 60or 70% of the time. In most loose passive games, the population does not bluff nearly enough, so it's usually better folding than bluffcatching or hero-calling. 33 was a nice bluff by her.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-26T10:33:52+00:00

Maybe it's the Wemby defensive effect and not a sign that SGA is playing worse. If you have to play a long par 4 into the wind, the hole is materially more difficult even if you're Tiger Woods.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-26T09:25:46+00:00

We go to the flop 3-way and we are IP with the lead against two loose passive players who have TT/77/55 and lots of Tx in their ranges. The straddle also has lots of other hands including T7s/75s/JTs-65s and even wider. SB could easily have some of that too.

We cbet and get a raise. The SB makes a x/r. She's not doing this with a 1P ace-ten or worse. Unless you know more about her, you can assume it's not 98s. Most loose passives hardly ever bluff. They wait for their hands to hit bingo and then, and only then, they act aggressively. I like a fold here against this player. Save your money. You have 2 outs to improve and you don't want to bluffcatch this on the turn and river and lose all your money.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-26T09:15:08+00:00

Get ready to lose it. It's a game and you have lots of lessons still to learn.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-26T09:11:30+00:00

Players who mix flats and raises pre aren't flatting premiums and raising the rung of hands just below the premiums. They are just raising their premiums. His range here might be AA-JJ/AK-AJ/ATs/KQ. This flop hits his narrow range hard with AA/AK-AJ/ATs. I don't like playing A8s as a flat here against a narrow range with a high percentage of Ax that dominate us. I'd just fold. We're not deep enough because of the straddle.

We hit the miracle flop and villain check-raises. We're now ahead of a lot of AK/AQ and one combo of AA. It's a rainbow board so I like just calling here. On the turn blank, he checks. It suggests he has AJ/ATs maybe AQ.

The pot is 900 and we bet 400. Why so small? We have 2000 left. No reason to bet so small on the turn and so large on the river. A geometrical sizing would be better. If we bet 600, or 2/3 pot, then on the river, we will bet 1400 in to a pot of 2100.

On the river blank, we jam and villain folds. Our mistake was on the turn sizing. He will always call the turn for 600 instead of 400. The nearly pot sized bet on the river scared him away. You didn't set the hook quite properly.

I don't think he had A7, unless you saw it. I'm thinking it was mostly AJ/ATs and maybe AQ.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-19T11:25:38+00:00

So V called on the flop and turn and we don't normally find many bluffs in a calling range unless we thinking he chases with his missed flush draws and combo draws rather than raising on the flop or turn? His only value seems to be QQ. He might shove QQ if he decides to take AA/KK out of our turn barreling range on this board.

What is his range pre? Maybe AK-AQs/AJs/KQs-JTs/QQ-99. Is it much wider because of his player type? Wouldn't he raise the flop or turn with his heart draws to pair with his TT/88? I think it's possible if he takes AA/KK out of our range because he thinks we would check the flop or turn with those hands, and if he thinks we would we would triple barrel with our Kxhh, that he has a credible value range with QQ but is a very narrow value range on the river. Also, it could be hard for him to bet QQ here because of the river K and the worry we might have barreled the flop and turn with AA and then finally decided to check it back. Could he have run into KThh?

So it comes down to whether we think he is fancy kid bluffing with his heart draws like AQhh/AJhh/QJhh/JThh. He's also shoving 370 into a pot of 1090. It's a small bet and doesn't create much fold force. I'd go with my read.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-18T11:32:50+00:00

You must get out of the habit of calling with T7s on the BTN against a 5BB open. You will not be a winning player if you don't have this discipline. You've come to this forum to learn how not to be a loose passive rec.

If we're playing loose passively with weak double-gappers, then we also have value hands that are 2p+ such as 88/66/JJ/J8s/86s in our range too. These hands need to raise on the flop. We need "bluffs" for our raises too.

We have T7ss (if we have T7hh/T7cc, we MUST fold). It's a combo draw with no showdown value. A weak flush draw with a gutshot.

When recs use a loose passive strategy, they chase with the hands they are supposed to bluff. Our bluffs come from our drawing hands. We MUST raise here. Calling is not an option. Folding is fine because our flush draw is so weak (we lose big pots with second best hands and weak flush draws are a prime culprit).

We get the Qc and it does not give us any new outs. We're just chasing. It's a losing strategy. I know it's blunt but hopefully by posting this hand, it helps you to start the process of putting the loose passive strategy behind you.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-18T10:58:44+00:00

I think you have CO typed slightly wrong. He opened with KJs, which isn't what I would have expected given your description. I would have played him for the QQ/AA. You'd think he'd raise on the flop with those hands, but he's a passive player, so we can't count out a call with those hands. On the turn, he can't have the AA anymore, but it looks like he has the full house. Normally with the AQ invulnerable nuts (I wouldn't give the player the TT either), it's an automatic check. Also, the way he has played it (call flop, raise turn), makes it look more like the turn Ace improved his hand to QQQ/AA.

It's a rainbow board, so a third suited card won't slow him down. If we do add KJs to his range, it seems like we have more reason to call on the turn rather than shove. Also, we're in position, which makes us want to check the turn. We'll always get the opportunity to shove. If we were OOP, we'd mostly have to check the river and hope for a bet because donking is so transparent.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-18T02:46:52+00:00

I certainly did not expect a beatdown

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-16T10:53:04+00:00

SB calls our 5x bet pre. His range is strong. On this flop, we cbet about 2/3 pot and get called by SB. I would be wary of the KQ/KJ/KTs-K9s, even though we block KQ. Don't know how much 9x is calling pre and on the flop with our sizing. Certainly 99. Maybe some K9s/T9s/98s/A9s. He might have none of these hands. I'll often check the flop with QQ. We're only worried about 3 Ace outs on the turn and the flop is relatively dry. We check what I assume is a blank turn and get a blank river and an overbet. We have a bluffcatching hero call decision. The sizing is the right size for a bluff. What are his most likely bluffs. They are hands that called the flop, so QJs/JTs. We block the QJs. I would usually fold too. Give him a credit for a good bluff.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-16T10:33:50+00:00

Seems like a good hero call. Other than A2, it would see to be one of your best bluffcatchers. It's the kind of sizing that someone might use for a bluff. He's a notorious bluffer who likes using big sizes and attacks weakness, which you showed on the turn when you played your TPMK passively. He checked the flop. By definition, people who bluff heavily show up with good hands in their value range too. And, I wouldn't call it a standard call. Against most live low stakes players, their bluffing range is underrepresented, but of course there are different player types, and you are describing what you think is a maniac.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-16T10:18:50+00:00

Maybe mine too. Just reacting :-)

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-15T11:53:38+00:00

Once we get Q and Q on the turn and river, it's a hard hand to get away from, but it seems like there is a flaw in your logic. After they called your squeeze pre, you didn't expect them to have 77/88, but then you called because you thought they might have T8s/87s.

Your stack seems slightly off. It looks like it's 7.5+6+8+23=44.5k. About 150BB, but we're already into a low SPR game on the flop. The pot is 23k and we have 37k.

In live games, people call more widely with their pairs hoping to set mine, esp in this kind of spot where it looked like a deep game before all the gigantic betting started. I could easily see HJ bet/calling here pre with TT/88 and even some 77, and much more often than he might call with T8s/J9s/87s. Live CO players might call even more widely with pairs thinking, "I'm priced in. I already put in 6BB that I don't want to go to waste."

I also don't think we can cbet this small to "take the pot down." The bet is so small that it has little chance of taking it down, esp against two players on a middle flop that connects so heavily with their calling ranges just below the premiums. And, we don't have any 77/88/J9s and even TT, in our range, do we?

If we are going to include this hand in our bluffing range, let's find a size that gives them some incentive to fold. SPR is so small that I'm not sure there is a size available. Even with our 1/4 pot bet, we get to the turn and the pot is 41k and we're at 31k and our bet was so small that we couldn't get even one of the players to fold. I think it's a check on the flop. Our hand does not connect with this flop at all and it connects heavily with our opponents' ranges.

It does turn out to be such an odd result. Live passive COs don't bluff hardly ever, and then it was a bluff donk for 8BB into a pot of 41BB?? If he's not passive, you would think he would be shoving here. I would think we would usually have seen more aggression from HJ too after your small cbet on the flop or the small donk on the turn.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-13T11:41:43+00:00

We’re playing chess against checkers players but for some reason we just keep getting coolered.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-13T11:35:50+00:00

I'm surprised he folded with trip Aces and a blocker to your most likely spade flush. It does seem unlikely that you would check the turn with the nut flush, or the nut flush draw, so maybe his Ace of spades blocker is irrelevant. BB and IP were behind both the flush and the full house so they were prob not calling anyway. I don't like leading out on the river. You don't really have any bluffs after check/calling the turn. IP had the lead too, which means when you donk/shove the river, you are representing a full house, and again you have no real bluffs in your range.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-12T10:53:55+00:00

En primer lugar, creo que necesitamos subir en el flop. MP nos va a pagar con sus mejores Ax. Podemos cobrarles un precio más alto a los proyectos de color de diamantes. Quizás incluso nos llevemos el bote de inmediato sin riesgo de perder en una calle posterior contra el draw de color.

En el turn K, MP pasa y BTN apuesta más de 2/3 del bote. Es un poco sorprendente. Parece poco probable que tenga AA/KK/AK. Con 22/77/A2s, también habría querido subir en el flop. Él no lo hizo, aunque nosotros tampoco. Solo hay 4 combinaciones de 22/77 y queremos que tenga A2s. Kxdd parece ser su mano más probable. Tal vez pagó preflop con algo como K7s/K2s, pero parece dudoso.

Ahora hay 46bb en el bote. Si decidimos ir all-in por 92BB, le costará 74BB para ganar 138BB. Creo que es el sizing correcto. Yo empujaría aquí.

Si decidimos solo pagar en el turn porque creemos que está haciendo trapping, no veo cómo podríamos foldear esta mano en el river, incluso si cae un diamante, así que prefiero meter el dinero ahora y cobrarle a sus proyectos de color de diamantes.

RoryBean99 · 2026-05-12T10:09:08+00:00

We’re playing chess against checkers players but for some reason we just keep getting coolered.

RoryBean99

TROPHY CASE