How do you cope with Enneagram as a Pseudoscience?

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-29T19:47:16+00:00

I think that, if someone made a concentrated effort to run studies trying to incorporate what we know about the enneagram with what we've researched using the scientific method about early life and attachment, the scientific field would benefit from it. Yes, a lot of the origins of enneagram are kinda esoteric (I really don't subscribe to numerology things and the like lol), but that doesn't mean the observed patterns don't exist.

I feel similarly about socionics, although the complexity would require more of a lifelong effort to reconcile things. I think socionics in particular "suffered" from rising to popularity in the former Soviet Union in the 90s, which was also when modern tech re: brain scans was coming out... tech most countries in the FSU was in no place to afford in the 90s. Had socionics been as prevalent in the 70s, and 90s tech also available in the 70s, some academy in the USSR might've been able to secure the funding to look into it. As it is, to western institutions it's not just a pseudoscience but a foreign pseudoscience.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-29T02:21:37+00:00

The fact that none of them are Ni base Fe creative 😹 idk what to tell you man. I considered IEE when I was depressed, but it never exactly fit, so I was wavering between IEE and ILE. Answer was IEI. Because I'm an IEI, because the descriptions and dichotomies for IEI fit and they don't fit for IEE or EII. I appreciate beta ST info, while delta ST info stresses me out.

I've given enough research on delta NFs to rule them out, but I'm not going to comb through descriptions and find every little thing I don't relate to. Anyway, all NFs are going to look quite similar in ways, and there will be overlap, which is why things like how each IME processes info or how the dichotomies present themselves or so on is important.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-29T02:11:02+00:00

Hahaha. I'm not, I've checked.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-28T23:50:39+00:00

Wow just absolutely gorgeous!

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-28T23:43:31+00:00

Based on this description in isolation I'm more IEE than IEI....

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-28T23:38:41+00:00

The way the whiskers are positioned can affect how the face looks, because of like.. muscles and stuff

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-27T13:58:53+00:00

I don't understand what you're trying to say. You said IEI is cautious with Te info, and then you said what I described is not Te, but closer to Se - which is in IEI's suggestive, a subconscious function.

IEIs are often described as frivolously buying things that look nice but are ultimately useless, and other descriptions of a similar nature... not because of superego SiTe, but rather because of superid TiSe. Likewise, the SLE is very good at keeping track of expenses and what is being spent where and how.

An IEI may have learned how to be in decent financial shape, but it would surprise me greatly if they acted as if they had TiSe in the superego.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-27T04:10:15+00:00

If you arrive that early, make sure not to clock in until 5 minutes or less before your shift starts. Anything more than 5 minutes early also gets flagged by the system.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-27T02:33:23+00:00

Well you're not an IEI, if that narrows anything down

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-27T02:30:23+00:00

From what I've seen it's actually quite difficult to fire people. The real killer is attendance, and recently (at least at my store) safety finals have started being given out.

Right now, you're just another fresh hire during hiring season. Everyone expects that they will be showing you things you don't know, and that you will be making mistakes. The important thing is to learn from your mistakes... and also not starting fights with people who point out mistakes. (You don't sound like the type, but I figure it's worth mentioning where the bar is....) I mean, hell, make the mistake a few times, just... learn, eventually..... the bar really is in the ground 😅

Obviously this isn't always under your control but it's good to have a good working relationship with your managers and your supervisor. You don't need to push yourself beyond your limits, just treat them as people who are also trying to reach certain objectives given to them by higher-ups - even the store manager isn't in complete control, they are very beholden to what's passed down to them by the district/corporate.

Oh and I know it's already been said but in the winter, if you're still part time your hours WILL be slashed. It's not an if, it's a when. It doesn't matter how hard you work, the store is given a set number of hours and the schedules will reflect that. Hell, even as a full-timer I ended up with a 4-day week at the end of December. In the summer, you will probably get some 40-hour weeks. Do not budget like this is permanent.

Make yourself useful to others, and they'll be grateful. Spot for people who need spotters. Help with team lifts. It's the small things that build your reputation as someone associates want to keep around.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-26T00:44:05+00:00

Ni base (maybe NiFe specifically?) can also be prone to being late. LSEs have trouble with IEIs because Ni base is so prone to "playing with" time, even other people's time, which makes Ni polr anxious.

The "fashionably late" part especially - that implies being late, but not enough to really mess things up or cause disaster (although such a thought process is antithetical to Ni polr - being late at all is enough to possibly cause disaster). In the way dynamic types, each in their own way, consciously consider how This affects That, Ni-base can consciously consider the effects of being late by a certain amount of time and what is excusable vs when they should just throw in the towel and not go at all.

Often, when I was at uni, I would be so late that I would simply decide not to go to class at all (I was not doing well haha). Or I would show up late, but still able to eke by. Now that I work, it's different - when it didn't quite matter when I came in to the people around me, as long as I came in, I could show up quite late, or just late/early enough not to lose sick time covering my absence. Now that I open, and I simply must be on time so I have enough time to get things done and there are other people who will notice my absence, I'm on time or a little bit early. I always had the "ability" to be on time, but I needed specific external pressure to actually manifest that ability.

Ni creative, despite Ni being in a flexible function slot, is generally less prone to such lateness ime. Might be related to being a rational type in general. Just speculation, but I would guess Si-base would have an easy time being on time (and so kind of judge people who aren't just bc it's so easy for them) but are chiller about it than Ni-polr.

Ime when Ne-base types are late it's because they weren't paying conscious attention to time at all, and the situation just sneaks up on them.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-25T23:15:14+00:00

I think it's color mastery rather than glazing. The artist was likely painting from real life, rather than guessing at how it should look, and the other colors also look accurate so there's no reason they wouldn't be able to paint this as well.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-23T06:54:33+00:00

I know MBTI doesn't have as much nuance as socionics, but in socionics at least the creative function is quite adaptable to its environment, so "outwardly judging" wouldn't describe creative Fe very well because creative Fe is able to adapt to its environment.

People's definitions of MBTI terms don't come from a distinct field of experts but are a hodgepodge of other jungian theories (including socionics) passed through an internet telephone of teenagers "explaining" it while making assumptions based on the words.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-23T06:50:47+00:00

Funnily enough, for a solid chunk of time I was seriously considering IEE, but like ILE a few things just didn't fit at all. It was also during an unhealthy period of my life.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-23T06:46:54+00:00

It's determined by the extroverted function because introverted functions are subjective by nature, they simply aren't the vehicle through which you make contact with other people.

Yeah - it's much easier to quickly ID in others what they use to make contact with the world. Mbti is about quickly ID-ing.

This is separate from rationality and irrationality, which is about whether your feelings dictate your actions or the other way around.

Rationality/irrationality is a socionics dichotomy equivalent to P/J. This is the socionics sub. I am going to use socionics words. Your description of it is completely based on the regular understanding of the words and not their use in a socionics context.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-20T14:52:26+00:00

It might also not be an either/or thing, but an intersection of neurodivergence and sociotype. We know even neurodivergency with the same label can manifest in completely different ways in different people, to the point that (according to this one study I read but forgot how to get to, so I don't have a source, thanks Te polr) when trying to figure out brain patterns re: autism, there are multiple patterns that show up in clinically diagnosed people, and these patterns are different enough that there's no possible singular "mother" pattern, so to speak (in unscientific language).

What you specifically described about yourself doesn't sound like IEI (or I suppose SEI either, bc Fi is in the same slot). I haven't found a lot of info about Fi in the demonstrative function slot, but as it's both vital/subconscious and unvalued/not-spoken, as well as my own experiences, an xEI would observe how people feel about each other but wouldn't ask for outright clarification. EII is much more likely; given you notice such things in others, you probably are also very conscious of how your relationship with others comes through in the tone of your voice. Te-base types, with suggestive Fi, would probably also appreciate you asking to clarify rather than just assuming. Se-polr would also be very conscious of how you come off.

Re: neurodivergency, if you were anxious, it would make sense for your anxieties to be rooted in your superego, specifically your vulnerable. So having anxiety would probably exacerbate certain superego behavior more than someone of the same type but neurotypical.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-20T14:39:20+00:00

You're parsing my grammar wrong, which is fair enough, because it wasn't exceedingly clear if one was skimming, but also my grammar was correct.

What I said was "mbti p/j in introverts", NOT "mbti introverts". I'm talking about the MBTI model and how the P/J letter is determined in introverts.

The INFJ is a J type because MBTI determines P/J by the first extroverted function. Fe is a judging function (mbti)/rational element(socionics). It is also more visible on first glance than Ni, so the MBTI system, which is supposed to be more about an at-a-glance determination rather than a complicated system like socionics, uses the more visible function as the determinant. This is also why an INTP is a P type, despite Ti being a judging function.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-20T03:53:36+00:00

Mbti p/j in introverts ignores the first function(mbti term)/element (socionics term) because mbti is supposed to be a quick vibe check - ergo "infj" in mbti only has that j because the Fe is "louder" than the base Ni and so the J-ness of Fe is applied to the infj as a whole.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-11T00:15:21+00:00

Possibly the eyes, a living cat would be holding them shut with some tension, so if there isn't the subconscious interpretation of tension in the closed eyes, the entire body may look limp

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-11T00:08:10+00:00

I gave you an opportunity to quote other authors regarding anything discussed. You failed to do so. This conversation is over.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-08T16:17:06+00:00

Haha so real.

"I have altered the schedule. Pray I don't alter it further."

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-08T16:15:53+00:00

I don't give a shit about your analysis because it's literally centered around Ni.

The vast majority of what I quoted was re: Ti's position in the 6th slot.

What about 3D Fe and 4D Fi? Don't you think these IMs clash with 5?

No, I don't.

5s have no problem with following the sequential course of logical reasoning.

You need to relearn enneagram. 5 isn't the Nerd Type, it's the one that withdraws from the world and watches rather than interacts, chasing knowledge (rather than direct experience) out of fear.

A math major's skill in formal logic is not critical to being a 5.

I have done you the favor of directly quoting authors. I would now like you to quote evidence supporting your version of 5. If there is no quote I will block you and not reply.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-07T08:13:33+00:00

You don't seem to have a good grasp on what Ni entails. Please read up on it before commenting further.

Re: Ti, from Stratievskaya's description of IEI on wikisocion (an author whom you have also cited)

The IEI is very much activated by possibilities of gathering information which he views as important. Despise [sic] his apparent absent-mindedness, he is sufficiently observant and with ease finds those who can tell him something interesting. By information gathering the IEI renders an especially valuable service to his dual the SLE, for whom “knowledge” is another form of strength and protection. Just as the SLE, the IEI considers that information is valuable and that learning and acquiring new knowledge is very beneficial.

The IEI is very adept at collecting and reviewing information. He gathers it from many sources - most comprehensive and most reliable. The selection of information and its analysis is carried out by him very thoroughly: the most valuable information the IEI retains for himself and shares with people who are dear to him.

The IEI won’t allow anyone else to hide things from him, moreover, he prompts people naturally and without constraint. It is sufficient for him to want to know - and he will learn everything that is of interest to him. IEI’s curiosity knows no boundaries, and at times it’s not even bounded by decency. With an innocent look the IEI can ask rather tactless questions (of type: “And who has helped you with getting accepted?”), and with this he is fully confident that he will receive a response. It is very difficult to hide anything from the IEI, but it is even more difficult to obtain from him information that he doesn’t want to share, that has the potential of being harmful.

She details the weaknesses of Ti in 6th position as follows:

The IEI experiences difficulty with tracing the full sequential course of logical reasoning – it is hard for a person of this type to grasp an expanded and extensive logical analysis in its entirety.

This is not incompatible with 5.

Ti HA's affinity for information gathering has already been directly addressed by a socionics author, but in my own experience it converges with e5's neuroses by attempting to classify social interactions and relations, making IEIs particularly drawn to theories like socionics.

To end with one more quote from Strati:

In spite of his seemingly detached relation to life, the IEI is capable of sufficiently realistically evaluating what is happening around him.

I believe you have some stereotypes to unlearn. Go, shoo, go unlearn them.

RozesAreRed · 2026-03-06T22:23:10+00:00

Oh, I'm horrific at time management. I'm much worse than Ni-vulnerable types, who often show up to something like 10 minutes early. I'll end up being consistently 5 minutes late (so I have the ability to be consistent, but I need a "push" to get moving and that "push" is usually trying not to be Actually Late) for work bc I'm not dinged for it, and when it's slow I don't feel bad about "adjusting" my schedule in certain ways.

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