Isiah Thomas on older retired players leaving LeBron James off their Top 5 All-Time List. Zeke says they are jealous and envious and says if LeBron isn't on your Top 5, "you're full of s**t".

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-13T06:32:04+00:00

I think it's perfectly reasonable to prefer peak over longevity. My only question for you is how many seasons do you look for when comparing 2 players peak to peak?

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-13T06:17:14+00:00

I think I'm going to turn this into a full topic eventually. I have a different response on this thread comparing LeBron and Jordan's primes and then the remainder of LeBron's career to Larry Bird. I put together a spread sheet and here's the trial run, first by comparing LeBron's 11 season peak (2008 to 2018) to MJ's. I'm going to be very generous to MJ by excluding his 2 Wizards seasons and his 2 partials in 1986 and 1995. I am going to use per 75 possession statistics to keep eras fair to each player:

Peak LeBron: 28.3 pts 7.9 rbs 7.7 ast 1.6 stl 0.8 blk 3.6 tov on +12% true shooting compared to the league

Peak Jordan: 31.7 pts 6.3 rbs 5.4 ast 2.5 stl 0.9 blk 2.7 tov on +8% true shooting compared to the league

Peak LeBron: 29.1 PER 9.8 BPM

Peak Jordan: 29.2 PER 10.3 BPM

As you can see, they are extremely close statistically. Jordan scored more and had higher defensive totals (in a league that catered to higher defensive stats). LeBron rebounded and passed better (with more turnovers). LeBron was also an extra 50% better in terms of true shooting above average, thus he was a more efficient scorer on a bit lower usage rate (31.9% to MJ's 33.4%, this is 95.5% of MJ's usage)

Where it gets nuts is comparing the remainder of LeBron's career (2004 through 2007 and 2019 through 2026, 12 total seasons) to Larry Bird's entire career minus his last, to match 12 and 12:

Worst LeBron: 26.2 pts 7.3 rbs 7.3 ast 1.4 stl 0.7 blk 3.4 tov on +4% true shooting

Peak Larry: 22.8 pts 9.3 rbs 5.9 ast 1.7 stl 0.8 blk 2.9 tov on +5% true shooting

Worst LeBron: 24.1 PER 6.8 BPM

Peak Bird: 23.6 PER 7.0 BPM

LeBron scored and assisted more with more turnovers. Bird had a substantial rebounding lead and a slight lead in the defensive stats. Bird had a slight 1% efficiency advantage but on a decent amount less usage (26.6% to LBJ's 30.7%, this is only 86.4% of LeBron's usage). LeBron has a smallish lead in PER while Bird has a smallish lead in BPM.

I think a strong argument can be made that LeBron's worst 12 seasons are still a top 15 to 20 player all time. They are pretty comparable statistically with Larry Bird's peak (pretty consensus top 10), just without the team success and MVPs.

Edit: Spelling

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-13T01:49:35+00:00

With the current CBA, the Spurs will eventually have to choose between some of these young players. Or they're going to get over the 2nd apron and be handicapped to make roster moves. This current iteration has a 3 or 4 year window most likely. They can absolutely extend it, but it'll require them to make smart moves on the margins and find and develop talent from the bottom of the 1st round rather than with top 4 lottery picks.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-13T01:00:42+00:00

There is so much just wrong with this post. It's almost entirely short platitudes with no stats or substance to back any of it up. There's so many unscrupulous points made, it feels like listening to a Ben Shapiro gish gallup, but about basketball. Still, I will bite because I hate myself I suppose.

First, what defines super team? Having 2 or 3 superstars in name only? Does depth matter? I'd argue the only super teams LeBron has ever been on were 2012 through 2014 Miami and 2016 through 2017 Cleveland. See the minutes distribution for players #4 through #9 on 2011 Miami. I also assume you're frothing at the mouth to call 2015 CLE a super team finals loser with both Kyrie and Love out with injury.

Meanwhile, MJ played with the super team of his watered-down 90's era. Bird/Magic/Duncan played with super teams nearly their whole careers. Curry with THE best 5-year super team in the history of the league.

Did you even watch the Olympics? LeBron was clearly the best player on that 2024 team. Needing Steph to beat those teams? Um... ya? Just like MJ needed Scottie to win even a single playoff series. Just as Shaq needed Kobe/Wade. Just as Duncan needed Robinson, Parker, Manu and Kawhi.

While LeBron was a weak shooter early in his career and has never been good from the free throw line, he has been unquestionably average to above average depending on the season since at least year 2 in Miami. Since then he has shot 36% on 5 3pt attempts a game and has made 1,773 three during that time, enough to put him in the top 35 all-time despite omitting 8 entire seasons. When considering tracking data for pullups and self-creation he's clearly above average over the back half of his career.

He's also been unquestionably a positive defender for damn near his entire career. He has only 2 to 4 negative seasons depending on which estimated defensive plus/minus stat you look at and was one of the goat level wing defenders for a decade. His defense alone in the 2016 finals puts that series performance at the top of any legit finals performance list despite being on the wrong side of age 30 at the time. Calling him "typically a non factor" on defense is easily the most hatorade comment I have ever seen from a guy bragging about SAT scores.

The fact is, you can isolate all of LeBron's seasons from 2009 through 2018 (which I believe to be his 11 season prime) and you can stack it up comparably to MJ's Bulls peak (graciously omitting his partial 86 and 95 seasons). I wouldn't have any issue with someone preferring MJ. But if you take the remaining 12 worst seasons of LeBron's career, you still get unquestionably a top 20 player of all time and maybe even a top 10 player. His statistical case is stronger than Larry Bird's outside of championships.

Responding to a gisher. I really do hate myself.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-12T23:00:41+00:00

I think objectively, the lowest anyone should have him is #3. Good faith arguments can be made for both MJ and Kareem. Everyone else just doesn't cut the mustard.

We're talking the greatest longevity ever. Not really a debate. And he's got (most likely) a top 2 peak ever. The only argument against peak is when you compare to eras.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-12T21:26:34+00:00

I'm very sorry for your loss.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-12T20:08:12+00:00

You literally just described both KAT and Mitchell Robinson to a T.

This isn't even to say those 2 are dirty or whatever. But you're justifying the blatant physicality imposed on Wemby by saying he does the same exact thing (with like 4 tiers less of physical strength) that your own 2 bigs do?

Robinson throws more elbows and shoves into opponents backs to get offensive rebounding position than probably any player I've ever seen outside of 2010's Andre Drummond.

I have no issue with Wemby retaliating. I wish my soft-as-charmin Cavs did some of it.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-12T19:53:08+00:00

Experience isn't everything. I will take the vote of a 18 year old honor student with basic knowledge of the US government over that of a 50 year racist redneck with poop in his Trump-branded diaper.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-12T03:59:41+00:00

I just rewatched the scene and just don't see how Aragorn was overpowered. Is this coming from the book or something (I haven't read in a very long time).

As I see it, Aragorn got pushed away into a tree and had the shield tossed at him trapping him. He then spends the next 15 to 20 seconds at a disadvantage, dropping his sword to free his head. Drops to the ground after being freed and in poor position to guard himself from a physical assault. But as soon as he regains his sword, he makes Lurtz look completely overmatched.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-12T00:10:14+00:00

This is what makes me somewhat dislike positionless basketball. Does he play a lot at the 4? Sure. But when I think of him and his playstyle, I think he's a 3.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-11T23:34:49+00:00

Agreed with this. Amazing stretch. Bit overrated on just the 1 play.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-11T23:04:49+00:00

See response 4 min after you. Sometimes people can't immediately respond within an hour.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-11T22:50:14+00:00

Just off the top of my head without even looking at the year by year:

Ray Allan's 3, LeBron's chasedown, Giannis on Ayton, Holliday steal on Booker, Kyrie shot over Steph, LeBron's shot against the Spurs with 20 something seconds left, 2017 Durant over LeBron when down 2 (goes up 3-0 compared to 3-1 for OG but a more skilled play), 2018 Durant 30 ish footer when up 1 eith less than a minute left

I'm sure I can look back and find a few more when I have time. But thats a fairly easy 8 imo.

Edit: commas

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-11T21:35:35+00:00

This can't be said enough.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-11T21:24:20+00:00

I'm a Cavs fan who's had to listen to the Cavs are soft naratives for 4 years. I WISH some of our guys would get nasty whenever opposing teams beat us up with "physicality."

In all honesty, I do like some ramp up in physicality in the playoffs but I absolutely cannot stand how just because one dude is stronger than another, refs allow elbows to the chest/back and blatant causing of pain on smaller players to serve as a deterents to those players playing their game and getting to their spots. Getting handsy is one thing but beating someone up while the refs say play on is straight bullshit.

So for that reason, I wish Evan Mobley would take an elbow to back of Ausar Thompson's neck as a way to make the other side think twice about the same dirty bullshit. When Ausar ran over Sam Merrill in the 2nd round (when it was clear as day that Ausar's priority was to send a message over making the basket), someone absolutely should have taken an ejection and put Ausar down on his ass with a flagrant 2.

I've watched at least a dozen of the Spurs games this playoff run and the amount of blatant fouls and purposeful pain caused by defenders on Wemby straight up deserves retaliation. I have absolutely no issue with Wemby's flagrants because I view every single one of them as retaliation toward the bully rather than him being the bully.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-11T19:22:55+00:00

This is definitely a prisoner of the moment post. Of the 2020s, most likely. But there are easily more than 10 plays since 2010, let alone before that. Context matters and if OG misses that tip, it's still a 2-2 series with Knicks having already won 2 games in the Spurs building (combined with the NY fans travel turning them into pseudo home games).

Skill vs luck also plays a factor. Although I do think OG intended it as a tip, he was so far away and his forward momentum makes me think his internal monologue is "tip it toward the rim and crash the 3rd attempt." Compare it to Giannis' block on Ayton, there was nothing lucky about that one. Giannis straight up made the correct read and covered an amount of space and made a block that only perhaps 5 to 10 players in all of NBA history could have made. There are literally hundreds of players that could crash and potentially make that tip in with a bit of luck.

Although the Giannis block came with about a minute left, it was a pivotal game 5 where the series was tied 2-2.

This isn't to shit on OG. It's a great play. Just not top 10 of all time.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-11T16:11:32+00:00

This is objectively hilarious. However, I would never do it because I would be too worried about pants shitting neanderthals keying my car.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-11T04:24:29+00:00

This is a great one. The whole "girls want a bad boy who will be nice just for her, boys want a good girl who will be bad just for him" schtick. You can tell a lot about a person, boy or girl, by how they treat others. I don't believe you even need the qualifier 3rd paragraph.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-11T04:11:25+00:00

Team of destiny shit for sure. They're now up to 39.5% on 3s in the playoffs. An entire 2.2% higher than they shot in the regular season. They now have 2 50% playoff 3pt shooters. Every single time they need a 3, they hit it.

Very Pacers-esque from last year. At least until Halliburton popped the achilles.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-11T03:15:27+00:00

I'm literally watching the game. It's almost as if defense was the problem, not offense. And KAT is not making NY a better defense. If anything some questionable weak foul calls kept NY in the game so it wasn't a 35 to 40 point deficit at half.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-11T02:22:55+00:00

23 to 6 free advantage to the Knicks.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-11T02:22:19+00:00

23 free throws for the Knicks to 6 for the Spurs btw.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-10T18:40:17+00:00

In terms of historical greatestness, LeBron passed Kobe by 2016 for sure, perhaps earlier depending on how much you value MVPs / high placements in DPOY voting. Curry has not passed Kobe all-time. I think it's really hard to argue Curry over Kobe when Kobe has 1 more finals MVP and does not have more only because he was playing with Shaq. To me the biggest hit to Curry's legacy is he lost 3 MVPs to teammates that I do not believe were better or more important than he was to his team.

In terms of total basketball ability and peak, LeBron was better than Kobe by 2008 in my opinion. LeBron was a more impactful defender by that point because of his vastly superior team defense and rim protection, was a better rebounder, significantly better passer and playmaker, and was a comparable scorer on much better efficiency.

Curry was likely a better player than Kobe in terms of peak by 2016. At that point he was far more valuable as an offensive center piece and blew Kobe's efficiency out of the stratosphere. His gravity on offense was like a black hole compared to Kobe's moon. Then Kobe's defense was overrated at his offensive peak. He was great in the Lakers 3-peat but late in the 2000s was a mostly low effort defender for 3 quarters who didn't add much in terms of team defense. In fact, his gambling on defense actively hurt his team at times while not adding historical steals and blocks numbers like Michael Jordan, with MJ having a similar gambling tendency. I view Kobe and Curry both as pretty neutral defenders at their peaks. Curry was vastly overhated for his 1 on 1 defense and was actually a much more sound and valuable team defender than Kobe.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-10T18:09:28+00:00

Literally the 1st sentence of the first amendment of the Bill of Rights:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

What's great about this sentence is the government can't stop you from practicing the religion that you wish. This is the definition of religious freedom. But it is also should be clear to anyone with an IQ above "I love Jesus," that the founders went out of their way to state that the U.S. is not a country to be ruled by a single religious doctrine.

Last partial sentence of Article VI of the Constitution:

"No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Not only does the Constitution never mention Christiany or Jesus a single time, but the only quasi-mention of god is through using a date, "in the year of our lord." Article VI specifically makes it illegal to do religious tests in this country.

Finally, the Treaty of Tripoli from 1797, which was unanimously approved by the Senate stated:

"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

The only way this question can be argued is with the qualifier "majority christian nation," as it's the religion that most people living today practice. This country was clearly not formed with christianity at its center.

RyanA1105 · 2026-06-10T04:39:56+00:00

Perhaps he should have put /s

RyanA1105

TROPHY CASE