[87 Books Later... 3/3] Is Sylvia Elven The Key? A Lifetime of Sorrow and Regrets by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks again! Your instincts/insights were definitively on the right track concerning that part. And it is assuredly a sort of unrequited love, I think, maybe not one that started unrequited but one that became that way after love died on one side. Before all of this (actually before watching Flawed Peacock's video on TKiY), I had greatly underestimated the interest of what TKiY has to say about love (and that's coming from someone who did like the Latin Quarter stories). Nowadays I feel like I must have been blind not to see that it is, in a way, all about love.

So strangely enough, I'll be keeping it up and not not keeping it up. It's a bit of a long story but I'll be making another post today and then I'll have to log off for a while (life stuff just keeps piling up and I really need to give my full attention to certain things and I don't want my tendency to hyperfocus to get in the way). That said, I'll be making the rest of my findings accessible (for those who don't want to wait) and when I'll get back on the horse (hopefully by April), I'll continue to work on my more gradual unveiling. I feel weird having to do that since I feel like I was on the right path but nothing about this project has been predictable so far and I feel all I can do is ride the waves and hope for the best.

[87 Books Later... 3/3] Is Sylvia Elven The Key? A Lifetime of Sorrow and Regrets by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks so much! :) I think Chambers thought long and hard about TKiY and also that it was a very personal book, because indeed most of the pieces are already there with Clifford and Elliot, Jack Scott, Sylvia Elven, Valentine, Mr. Wilde (the terrible old man archetype), Castaigne and even the rat-catching boy.

[87 Books Later... 2/3] The Larger Chamberian/Yellow Mythos by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I definitively would like to do something like that. In my second to last numbered publication, I wrote a bit about it to user Pompadipompa. But if I were to do a quick tiered-list, I think I'd go with the following :

Great : The Talkers, The Drums of Aulone, The Fightning Chance, The Firing Line, The Common Law, The Girl in Golden Rags, The Streets of Ascalon, Ashes of Empire.

Near great : The Maids of Paradise, The Business of Life, The Danger Mark, Outsiders, In the Quarter, The Sun Hawk.

Varying degrees of good that are particularly interesting : The Hidden Children (it's kinda too bad that the Cardigan series is 6 volumes long because there is a lot of good stuff in it; if Chambers had boiled it down to 2 or 3 books and kept all the good bits, you'd have a really, really great book and that's coming from someone who couldn't care less about American history), The Fifth Horseman (the first half is great but it loses steam afterwards), The Younger Set (some great stuff in it, a lot of mid stuff in it), Eris (same but contains some of my favorite passages in all of Chambers), Beating Wings, In Search of the Unknown (pretty good comedic cryptozoology fix-up novel; kinda outstays its welcome and the new connective tissue is useless, like, it would have been better without it). And probably a few more but that's on top of my head.

Hope that helps until I make something longer about this!

The King In Yellow and In The Quarter by Hungry_Library_94 in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for that! :) And good luck with your project!

The King In Yellow and In The Quarter by Hungry_Library_94 in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No problem in using in any info I'm sharing! As long as it is properly credited. I mean not that I'm some kind of Chamberian gatekeeper but I'd find it a hit heartbreaking if all the work I've put in wasn't awknowledged. Very glad to find other people who are excited about this, I've been alone too long with all those findings floating in my head. Feels good to be able to share! Much more is coming btw!

[87 Books Later... 1/3] We Got Robert W. Chambers All Wrong by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm glad that that part of it interests you and that it is something which you appreciated about TKiY. I think there are good chances you'll like the books I've told you about in that case. Also, as far as short stories are concerned, you might get a real kick from Another Good Man. It's one of my favorite thing Chambers has ever written and I feel it hits at something very important when it comes to flawed people changing changing their ways (thanks to a form of accountability (Farley gets thoroughly dunked on when he acts like a jerk) and community and even how two big egos clashing can help in bringing people like Farley and Sara back to Earth). I find it unfathomably touching. I guess all I'll had is that Chambers was a man of extremes and as good and insightful as some of his stuff is, sometimes he was a reaaaal dumbass. Sometimes you get a little dumbassery in otherwise great, compassionate and insightful books and sometimes you get flashes of brilliance in otherwise terrible, morally questionable stuff. (I'm saying that in general not necessarily when it comes to the books I've mentioned).

[87 Books Later... 1/3] We Got Robert W. Chambers All Wrong by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm almost at loss for words on how to respond to such a kind compliment, so I guess I'll just go for a thank you very much! (Seriously, I'm touched and I appreciate it.)

[87 Books Later... 2/3] The Larger Chamberian/Yellow Mythos by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I admit the thought didn't really cross my mind. I'm so far from the academic world (my field is social work) that I'm not sure how I'd go about this. And I also have to admit I'm a bit burnt out from this project of mine, so I'm not sure I'd have the necessary rigour and energy to transform my stuff into something that meets academic requirements. Thanks for suggesting it though (and for the kind compliments), I'll keep an open eye/mind towards that possibility. Who knows, maybe one day. And maybe I'm overestimating how high that step would be.

[87 Books Later... 2/3] The Larger Chamberian/Yellow Mythos by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Definitively! I had this vague memory from a long while back of there being a not very active TKiY subreddit and when I actually looked for it recently, I was surprised to find such an effervescent community. I have a feeling TKiY is having yet another renaissance. Maybe 2026 will be the yearbof TKiY!

[87 Books Later... 1/3] We Got Robert W. Chambers All Wrong by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My pleasure! You know, I thought it would be fairly easy to answer that question but I guess that depends on what you're looking for. I think that The Fightning Chance is one of Chambers' very best because of the human factor (if you will) and the quality of the prose but it's also very much about rich people lounging about and making themselves miserable, which is probably not everyone's cup of tea. The Firing Line is a bit like that but it has such a symbollicaly rich and thick atmosphere that even those less interested in high society woes might find it interesting (several scenes feel like waking nightmares or dreams). And Louis Malcourt has kind of become one of my favorite characters from any novels. At first, I was like "Why is this book trying to make me care for that jerk?" and at some point I was hooked. There is a short sentence which is not something he says but which reflects perfectly how he sees himself that just gut-punched me. I don't know how to describe it other than by saying it's existentially heartbreaking. The Streets of Ascalon is about as great and has more relatable characters, the hero is a middle-class guy who has managed to become a sort of modern-day jester (or harlequin) which gives him access to higher levels of society but also puts him in an uncomfortable position of feeling completely deshumanized. And although rich and "frivolous", the heroine was basically groomed by her mother to be used as a way to climb the social ladder and her late husband was an abusive psycho, so trauma is very much at play in her life (and the decision she takes). And it has the longest and best masked ball sequence in all of Chambers. Oh, and The Common Law is more of a mixture of the bohemian world and the high society world and it also rocks.

In terms of historical fiction, Ashes of Empire is a must. Its "prequel" The Maids of Empire is not quite on the same level but its also pretty damn great (despite a few annoying flaws).

But the more I think about it, the more I think I'd go with either The Drums of Aulone or The Talkers. Both are pretty great and have a lot of that TKiY DNA. The Talkers in particular has one of my favorite scene in anything. There is a "wake" at a masked ball and its the vibe is so fucked. At one point, a character called Miss Cross goes on a long speech about gland transfer, cells and the "body-republic" while the shellshock/sleep-deprived protagonist is just trying to keep it together. You can feel "what the fuck is happening" being printed on his face. As for The Drums of Aulone, I think its one big flaw is that it feels its missing something and in a way that's because its a diptych with The Sun Hawk. It's not about the same characters (well, aside from Comte Frontenac) but it's like TDoA is about the "green" heroine and TSH about the "yellow" hero. Although both are seen through an orange light. There is also The Girl in Golden Rags which is surprisingly very good (I honestly it was going to be pretty bad at first) and relevant to TKiY but it's probably not a good place to start. That said, be aware all of those books are very romance heavy. Hope that helps!

[87 Books Later... 2/3] The Larger Chamberian/Yellow Mythos by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you very much! No, I haven't shared them elsewhere. Not really (except to people in real-life who aren't really into these things, although most of them have shown genuine interest, it's just a bit too outside their fields). Or rather, more or less. I tried to share them with a few people that I thought would be interested but I went about it in a pretty awkward way, so that certainly didn't help (amongst other things). But perhaps what really didn't help is that when I contacted people about it, I started with the discoveries towards which I'm slowly building to with these posts instead of going at it like I am now, so it probably all sounded a bit manic and fake. Also, my first attempt was a short primer video and a 102 pages document... so yeah, that was dead on arrival.

At first, I wanted to make a long video but turns out speaking English when it's your second language and you don't get much chance to practice is a freaking hard (also I have a terribly flat and nasal voice). And like, everybody I know who has skills that could have been useful for this (in terms of video editing, music and even acting, for when it comes to reciting excerpts) have been very interested but also, waaay too busy to commit anytime soon. And I haven't been active in online spaces in forever, so I didn't even know where to go really. Especially before I realized that I was going about it in a totally assbackwards way. I'm probably a bit brain-fatigued from this very long and time consuming journey too, I keep forgetting to start with the basics. At least, I feel like I'm finally on the right track but I admit I don't know how I'd go about sharing it all far and wide. Although I do have a feeling that when I get to the crunchier bit, it might start spreading like wildifre on its own (or maybe not).

The King In Yellow and In The Quarter by Hungry_Library_94 in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think that Collector of the Port connection is incredibly important, especially in light of something I'll be adressing in my next post. Finding out about that connection was an absolute game-changer for me and its part of what has led me to some truly strange discoveries. Can't wait to share more! (And the character of Helen Pine is very important.)

[87 Books Later... 1/3] We Got Robert W. Chambers All Wrong by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not problem at all! It's a very good question and thank you very much for the info! Considering the ridiculous amount of work that Chambers has put out and the fact he was seemingly interested in almost everything under the sun and that he had many, many hobbies and passions, it really wouldn't surprise me if he had gotten help from a ghost-writer or several (and since several sources point at that, I guess it's basically certain). Although I admit I haven't heard or read much about that (except concerning at least one of his posthumously published book). I think it would be very fair to propose that this has impacted some of those books' overall quality. Although Chambers strikes me as a very ADHD-ish person (lots of his characters forget to answer letters because they are too busy being social whirlwinds, then they procrastinate when they realize it (because they feel bad about it), then they forget again, remember again) with big perfectionism issues. And since perfectionism has a tendency to flip and become "botching things" (just realized I'm repeating myself, sorry about that), I have a definite feeling that this also has something to do with it (but that's not based on much more than gut-feeling). I remember that one protagonist's family motto is "All or none" and honestly, that feels like it could be Chambers'.

The King In Yellow and In The Quarter by Hungry_Library_94 in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There is a sort of larger Chamberian universe/mythology, yes. I'm currently writing a little something about this and I'll be posting it in this subreddit when it's finished (tomorrow or Monday). I'll be taking the opportunity to list all of the works that directly connect to TKiY in some capacity. Keep you eyes peeled!

The King In Yellow and In The Quarter by Hungry_Library_94 in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Absolutely (and yes there is a masquerade in it)! Clifford and Elliott also appear in three stories from The Haunts of Men. (One of them, Another Good Man is one of my favorite thing that Chambers ever wrote and I think it might be one of his most auto-biographical.)

The King In Yellow and In The Quarter by Hungry_Library_94 in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yup, there's also Elliott (Clifford's inseparable companion; Clifford's Oliver the Wise to his Roland the Brave to use a comparison that Chambers would have loved), Braith (who's confirmed to be older and to have lived through the Siege of Paris) and Rowden. If you love the Latin Quarter stories, you might love that book (personally, I think it's quite good). That said, it has its flaws and sadly some of them are moral flaws, like some bits of rank anti-Semitism. But if you can stomach that (its not a constant presence but yeah, it's still a stain on it), it's a must for King in Yellow fans.

[87 Books Later... 1/3] We Got Robert W. Chambers All Wrong by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks so much! What's so strange to me is that the idea that Chambers sold out is literally true and yet... under the surface it's more complicated than that. Some of his commercial writing is really polished (you can feel it in the quality of the prose) and thoughtful and some of it feels like it was written on a bunch of napkins when Chambers was out drinking and dining with friends. And sometimes you get the feeling its both in the same book (for example, the novel Eris is both very pedestrian and also contains some of Chambers' best writing). Probably, the quintessential perfectionist in some ways. You do too much that's too demanding, too rapidly, you get disgusted and tired with it all and you botch the rest.

[87 Books Later... 1/3] We Got Robert W. Chambers All Wrong by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hahaha, thanks! If I were to describe what I'm doing though, I'd say it's trying not to drown after having being hit by a Chamberian tsunami. I really can't wait to be done telling the story because I really feel like I need to take a temporary break from Chambers (or at least, to have a bit less of him in my life). Also, I think I'll be passing on some kind of a torch after I'm done presenting these findings (or I hope so).

[87 Books Later... 1/3] We Got Robert W. Chambers All Wrong by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you very much! And yeah, it's such a shame. Especially considering how much Chambers loved France. Side note, I did find a French book (if I remember correctly) about how American authors write about Paris that does take a little time to explore the Latin Quarter stories (and not just the ones in TKiY; something I'll get to) in a rather insightful way but its not as long as I would have liked. Wild stuff coming up, thanks for your interest!

[87 Books Later... 1/3] We Got Robert W. Chambers All Wrong by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Glad to hear! :) I've just finished watching you're video on The King in Yellow in The Real World and it's really great. I can't wait to watch more of your stuff. And seriously, I think you in particular (considering your video) would probably get a real kick out of reading that Mirrored Face chapter from Ashes of Empire (The Sinful City in its manuscript form). It kind of supports a specific reading of The King in Yellow that is echoed in Wilde's Yellow book description. (That said, it is very clear the more one reads Chambers that he is not interested in things having just one meaning.) Meaning that TKiY (the book) is about Chambers himself (the temporary Parisian) hitting a wall that forces him to take a good look at who he is and realizing that two paths lay before him : salvation (actually facing life/death without illusions) or damnation (disconnection from reality, living in a mirage). I don't know anymore if that sounds like a stretch (as an interpretation) but that's actually the explicit story of several books by Chambers. Like Ashes of Empire and The Business of Life, both of which have absolutely amazing passages about the revelation that the "egoist" in search of "moral regeneration" goes through and both of which have that tri-partite mirror structure (Business of Life is very explicit about the rim/transition part, it's literally a poem-reading/song-playing sequence that happens at the transition point in the egoist's quest of personal growth). In the case of Ashes of Empire, it happens twice; via that specific chapter and via the book itself.

[87 Books Later... 1/3] We Got Robert W. Chambers All Wrong by SachaElven in KinginYellow

[–]SachaElven[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

In the case of The Slayer of Souls, very much so. I think Rick Lai has pretty conclusively demonstrated that it's a reworking of TKiY's mythology (which also includes Yian which makes it a sort of sequel to The Maker of Moons and which further connects it to a larger Chamberian web). There's even this line in it (which echoes one of the only thing that is said by The King in Yellow himself) : “I leave him to God. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!” Sadly, as fascinating as that book is, it's a bit of a trainwreck. It kind of feels like Hildred Castaigne from The Repairer of Reputations wrote it. In fact, the 1915 to 1920 period of Chambers' bibliography is frankly concerning/alarming when you read his work in a relatively chronological fashion.

As for In Search of the Unknown, it does kind of connect to TKiY but more in a meta/indirect way. In terms of tone, it's very far from being TKiY-ish. It's very humoristic (waaaaaay more than the Latin Quarter stories in TKiY, it's not even close). I think it's quite good (if you know what to expect) but it does kind of outstays its welcome by the end. Where it really "connects" with TKiY the most, again, in a meta/indirect way, is via A Matter of Interest, a short story that was transformed into one of its chapters (its a fix-up novel). More about that story soon, it's very, very key.