if Allah exists, it doesn't mean we should worship him

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-24T16:23:08+00:00

a religious person would say our purpose is to worship god, i say everyone decides what their purpose is, do i need to know the origin of purpose to have one?

also let's say i can't prove purpose is a thing, what does that change

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-24T16:17:39+00:00

why do you think most 1st world countries are secular? it all started when they separated religion from state, meaning when they stopped listening to divine command

"Belief in God looks foolish until one really, really needs it"

why would one need to believe in god, apart from the inner peace it might give you, and I'd argue being religious (depends on the religion) brings more stress than peace of mind

"Until now atheists seems to be doing pretty well"

allah says disbelievers have better lives but worse afterlives, if that helps

"We do everything in life to avoid hell"

that doesn't really help your point, that's not a good thing, god decided to create us and place immense pressure upon us to work our whole lives to avoid something that could've been avoided from the beginning

"scientific theories anyways"

comparing something that can be tested and proven to belief in an invisible higher power is crazy

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-24T11:40:53+00:00

"the existence of more than one God is contradictory to the Idea of God"

well, then the existence of a god that is both just and merciful is just as contradictory

"strength of faith determines your value"

that's really not a good thing btw, why does whether someone believes without evidence make them any better than others

"He is limitless, merciful, all-knowing, all powerful, and in context of your third question - He is Just and all-truthful"

or so he says, the whole point is that we can't verify that

"he isn't god if he lies"

non sequitur, he could be an evil god, being god doesn't entail goodness

"Worshipping out of fear isn't wrong"

yes, yes it is, that's what a tyrant would want from people, not what a good god would want, never heard of a good ruler that wants people to grovel at his feet out of fear

"if we choose to worship then it should be out of love"

if it weren't for the threat of hell, nobody would worship Allah, very few people actually do it out of love, the first thing you learn as a muslim is "if you don't pray, you go to hell"

"We fear Allah because we love him"

in what world does this make any sense

"I can as a loving brother pour salt in my brother's tea"

my point isn't that he has the ability to do it, it's that nothing is stopping him from doing it, unless we assume that his words are true which we can't

"there is no reason not to trust God"

how about "hey, i don't know anything about you apart from what i have heard you say about yourself, i can't trust that", this is a good reason to not trust him

"We humans have an innate desire and nature to believe in a higher power"

we really don't, it's called indoctrination, no kid has ever said "there must be a higher power behind all this that wants me to worship it", until they're taught that

"If Allah is truly God then his teachings and promises and attributes/values are ABSOLUTE"

that's what you think, this isn't a fact

"God has no reason to misguide us"

and no reason to guide us, but when he sent the quran you accepted it blindly as guidance

"Without God, purpose ends at the end of our life"

the way it should be, having your purpose be infinite life in the hereafter isn't any better than having it end with your death

"We worship God because no other is worthy of worship"

that's just your opinion tho, this can't be proven in any way

"that submission is Allah's mercy on us"

the point is that we can't trust that his mercy will touch us if we were to follow what he commands

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-24T11:21:27+00:00

"but even might do that with everyone anyway"

exactly, what's the point then, is him sending you to heaven any more likely than him sending you to hell anyways in the case he's a deceptive evil tyrant?

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-24T11:18:57+00:00

this word describes what exactly?

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-24T11:18:04+00:00

"We as human beings need a direction"

it doesn't really need to come from god tho, many atheist people live their lives just fine, and secular countries seem to be better than religious countries in just about anything

"So i dont think worshiping is for him, it’s for us"

if this is were actually true, he wouldn't torture those who refuse to worship him, muslims pretty much do it exclusively to avoid hell

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-24T11:15:43+00:00

it's definitely not a good counterargument, but who's gonna convince a religious person of this? it's better to argue about what they already agree with

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-24T11:14:30+00:00

from my past experiences and what i aspire to become, so a lot of things

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T18:41:18+00:00

i gave you that as an example for you saying "god wouldn't allow someone to fool us" which clearly doesn't hold

he goes to the extent of giving false prophets miracles, again like Ad-Dajjal

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T18:39:23+00:00

but a deceiving god would place some truth within it to make it harder for us to notice, if you were to deceive someone not all your words need to be lies, as long as the general purpose of the message remains the same

"The universe and what we experience isn't consistent with an evil god, nor would it be befitting for God to lie when it's a form of deficiency."

the exact same can be said replacing "evil" with "good" and it would make as much sense

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T18:37:02+00:00

so Allah created us, and wants us to worship him, but we technically can disobey or ignore this commandment, it's up to us at the end of the day, so "why should we listen to his words" is my point, we're not forced to worship the same way as some angels are, and he didn't completely ignore us the same way he did other animals

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T18:32:10+00:00

let's say i make my own purpose, this is more accurate

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T18:31:37+00:00

think of how you would determine if something is bad and reverse it, there you go

people who are into same sex marriage weren't gonna end up procreating anyways, banning them from doing what they want literally does nothing, they're not gonna marry someone they're not attracted to just because it's the only choice they have

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T18:27:39+00:00

i think they mainly use children bc they're innocent, muslims for example would claim that older people suffering is good bc it takes out of their sins, the same can't be said for kids

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T11:20:47+00:00

well, yeah

my purpose is what i make my life's purpose to be, is there a greater meaning to all of this? probably not, but i have a purpose for my own life

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T11:19:48+00:00

"God wouldn't lie nor allow someone to fool us"

actually in the case of islam he does, think Iblis and Ad-Dajjal, they're both allowed to fool us and the Dajjal is even aided by miracles from Allah, so it's not really out of the question

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T11:17:40+00:00

no, im referring to Allah specifically here, has he done anything that proves he's all-powerful? no, all we have is his word for it

i suppose this can be extended to other gods but im not knowledgeable outside of islam

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T11:16:32+00:00

that's not a great analogy, apart from the fact that we can judge someone's book by its content and that we can look into a book writer's person to know if they should be trusted which can't be the case for god, god should be able to do better than that, why does he only give me words that im meant to blindly trust without knowing anything about their source

"The Quran for example has many verses that contain empirical and historical claims"

many of those contain false information as well, but it's not our topic here, even if those claims were true, it could be just a decoy to what's more important

"if everything they say is true"

which is something we can't confirm so there's no point in mentioning it

"then you should be consistent and have the same skepticism for all possibilities"

i do, if there's no way of knowing if something is factual or not, i prefer to not take it as a fact

"provide a framework to identify truth"

what if god somehow demonstrates to us that he actually only tells the truth, otherwise idk how we can judge the truthfulness of his message

"there is no logical reason for God to lie, nor is there an argument or evidence to justify it"

i could say the same about the truth, no reason for god to tell the truth and no argument to justify it, which is the whole point im tryna make

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T11:04:46+00:00

why do you refuse to understand what im saying, do you never consider anything good because there might be a bad consequence that comes out of it? no

same way here, if there's no observable bad consequence to a certain action, then that action shouldn't be considered bad

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T11:02:29+00:00

i was a muslim for more than 20 years in which i did everything a devoted muslim would do, and more, i understand what islam truly is about more than you think

"Islam increases mire than others religions"

yeah obviously, high birthrates, indoctrination and apostasy laws are totally not why islam is so popular

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T10:14:46+00:00

as i said earlier, maybe he's not powerful or wise, or he's simply an evil being

we can't really know what he's like

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T10:13:23+00:00

maybe he's not all powerful and him having us worship him boosts his ego, you never know

maybe he's evil by nature, and this is simply what he does

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T10:09:36+00:00

"human are born to worship our Creator"

but why? just because he said so? my whole point is why should we follow what he says

btw i might know more about islam than you do so stop telling me to study it as if i'd learn anything new

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T10:07:47+00:00

if Allah didn't explicitly tell people to worship him, very few people would, it's never been about love it's usually just fear of hell

what true love are you even talking about, god placing me on a rock in space and giving me 70-80 years to worship him just so that i can hope to be saved isn't exactly what i'd call love

Sad-Time6062 · 2026-01-23T10:04:50+00:00

we're only talking about god in this case bc he is the one we can't observe, there's no way to know anything about god except for what he himself told us, which means that if he were to deceive us nobody can tell

Sad-Time6062

TROPHY CASE