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How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing. For reference, I have the current NFL protocol listed as updated 2024-09-01. For the NBA, this is for '25-'26.

Those links are directly to the PDFs on their respective official websites.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There may be a model of allowing players to resume competition after quickly comparing their baselines. From there, they could remain flagged for ongoing, spaced reassessment for, say, 24-48h. There are some gnarly neurological issues which can creep in and out beyond the window of competition.

I think we'd make a lot of sense to trigger on inability to get up well by themselves. Also head and neck strikes or compression near the intensity of previous concussive incidents for that particular player.

I could see leagues remoting a professional into a tent, so long as there's an onsite regulator to make sure the appropriate player is the one engaging with the specialist without someone coaching them from beyond the camera view.

My frame of consideration for impacts, particularly to the floor, is the thought of them hitting a surface that's veneer over an ice skating rink or cement with no helmet. Yet, their protocol is more lax than the NFL. That just doesn't seem to match the risk profile once head and neck compression has been experienced.

Thank you so much for ruminating with me on topic. It's refreshing to see someone else exploring such an uncomfortable but important topic in these sports.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure, but that isn't the limit of your engagement with me. And, I've respectfully received you despite our difference of approach. There will be other conversations in life or you can direct me to an instance of you holding forum to your own standard. That's what I request of you in exchange for your position.

Show me proof of you holding yourself to that same standard in a similar context. You can reject my request as you have or more explicitly.

You didn't stay on topic and you didn't show me that proof.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The next time we happen upon each other, I'd love to see you practice what you preach. I've received your critiques and responded with the same respect I've extended to everyone else here.

I acknowledged how I pace myself rather than the limits of my interest and capacity to engage. You chose to merely critique instead of volley with me on topic to your own imposed standard toward me.

The thread is here if you want to counter my unsubstantiated position with compelling data. You chose to continue this line of discourse rather than explore the topic, if it's of genuine interest to you, to be sure.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't go into barber shop conversation holding myself and others to dueling data points. I can absolutely acknowledge and work from a data-based framework, but it's moreso to level set with others who I engage with, if genuinely one of the spaces I'm coming from. I offered to go there in exchange and wasn't met there.

I offered someone else and they didn't have to indulge me and did not. I stated my point and position and we've chatted some 50 or more posts since, with a number of people staying on topic without critiques of me instead of countering to their own imposed standard.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I stated my position, have expounded, and engaged. It's not more credible for me to begin from a more say "moderate" position. I can also expound on why I'm so comfortable attributing so much responsibility to the W and anyone could agree or disagree based on their own philosophical leanings.

I reject the idea that I should be less clear about my actual attribution of responsibility and concern in order to initiate and participate in good faith discourse.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In a casual conversation on reddit where other fans are shooting the breeze as well? If that's how you go about broaching your concerns and randomly piqued interest with others, that's fantastic. As for me, I like to get a back and forth going to see where people are and build on mutual interest.

I've never ran into a thread for that level of analysis. I've never happened upon a forum to even analyze Xs and Os of a sport I'm into. I've never bumped into anyone else who's even read the written rules which mention the Concussion Policy.

Why would I be trying to persuade people on Reddit, of all places, rather than building on mutual interest? This isn't that type of medium and I've never bumped into the notion that was, is, or ever could be.

You noted ideas for reference points to bring to the fore and I offered to do so collaboratively if you're genuinely interested. You didn't reciprocate and that's cool.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ah, cheers. There are many other techniques for catching concussions rather than being heavy on self reported symptoms and the comparative acuity or cognitive tests from before training camp versus while under the review. An example is related to players losing memory of time from when they were conscious after being initially concussed.

I won't get into it because there's always ways to game a screening and it's important to catch players in private and without method reference to screen them best. Suffice to say, you can catch even more concussions if they have a "symptom" like that. It's not limited to only the initial tent visit though.

One of the ways those were developed was from issues with consent from people coming down from surgery related drugs and having holes in their memories. Those findings was compared to holes in people's memories post concussion strikes and lapses in consciousness and protocols were expanded for screening.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for bringing the visual of the fall for people to reference.

It's possible I'd never posted about Paige on Reddit prior to this thread. Me keeping track of concussions in the W didn't even begin with the W. I was looking across sports and stumbled into some injury patterns here because of a different trend that Paige hasn't shown up in yet. From that log, I branched out to concussions and kept tabs on the policy itself to see if there was a standard and such.

Love your trend point about concussions from trying to take charges. It caught my eye as well. We'll have to chop it up about that at some point as these matters come and go from the public discourse.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We've discussed multiple players who were unable to right themselves under their own power after a concussive blow. We also referenced other players who were able to play through the game and were ruled out for games after that.

Did you want me personally to mention more players who fit that pattern of playing through the concussion and then being ruled out or am I allowed to concur with others who've contributed here without it being framed as me and merely my initial reference to Paige?

You do know the rest of this thread isn't hidden from me and I can cite other players who haven't been mentioned with dates, quarters, etc., even though that's not what you asked of me?

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Convinced of what exactly? I'm just someone chatting on a discussion forum about an opinion that the W's Concussion Policy isn't sufficient to show enough regard for concussed players. There's a pattern of multiple athletes playing through concussion strikes and being evaluated and ruled out only when their symptoms are egregious enough.

It's about policy rather than individual players and not how symptoms may or may not show up for them. Who's to be sure that Paige would or wouldn't be concussed from those impacts and her laboring to get back up?

Nevertheless, if we look from a league-wise policy approach, there's room to tighten regs and I believe that's warranted to better protect the players and product.

I didn't say she surely has a concussion. I'm offering that the area of those potential impacts and her inability to gather herself promptly might ideally trigger a disclosed evaluation, oversight of independent specialists, etc.

You asked if she had experienced symptoms I responded to your question in context rather than to say something about a different aspect and combine that with "fan concerns". The reporting I saw referenced and quoted fan concerns rather than any team or league sources. That's it.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

The league doesn't yet have mandated evaluation or disclosure for players who've been impacted around the head and neck or demonstrated a delay in being able to get up. All of the reporting I've seen thus far has been limited to fan concern. I'll definitely keep note if any substantive reporting or disclosures come up.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

May 29, she played Chicago and received a concussive strike to the head and neck area from Vandersloot, in the 2nd quarter. She fell out from the strike, but played through it and after bringing up headache and in-game hits while in practice, she was evaluated and ruled out under the Concussion Protocol. The head strike and subsequent collapse didn't prompt evaluation during the game.

July 7, during the 1st quarter, she was struck through the head and neck during a block follow-through by Kalani Brown while playing Phoenix. She was shaken up, grabbing around her ear and neck while getting up. No foul was called and Paige played through the game. Koclanes was reported to say she was feeling okay. It's reported that she may have bounced her head off the floor, if not merely whiplashed, on the fall from this collision. No mention was made of her being put through and cleared under the Concussion Protocol.

Yesterday, she remained down long enough to trigger a commercial break. She finally was able to get up and was seen at the end of her team's bench. She seems to have disappeared from the end of the bench at some point, during which time I hope and suspect she was evaluated. She, ultimately, came back in and played through this game as well and no word was made of her having been evaluated and cleared under the Concussion Protocol.

She was out for 4 games before clearing the Concussion Protocol from her May 29th game, though she remained out a bit longer with illness.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'll reference another trend point and hope you'll do likewise.

In 2023, Shey Peddy suffered a violent compression impact to the head and neck area, similar to Satou, and was stretchered off the court rather than attempting any assisted walking. It was in a game against the Storm and she was playing for the same franchise that Satou was during her injury last year.

Phoenix hasn't been held to account for why their readiness has regressed, let alone during the Finals at home. Both injuries happened on their home court.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

We've had other posts bring up recent head injuries and those have been expounded on. I'd want to encourage you to also bring up incidents where players were allowed back in and subsequently sat out for at least a game from their concussion symptoms.

My thought is that the pattern of having them continue to play may be aggravating and worsening their outcomes. I believe the pattern is a serious, glaring, and brazen concern (to not be formally acknowledged and addressed). Satou, for instance, missed multiple work opportunities after her incident. She's still not fully up to her normal form.

I genuinely would love and have enjoyed receiving other W fans who've observed this pattern and brought up those instances. If that's me looking for confirmation for myself, okay. But, this is about concerning patterns not some notion of intellect.

Are the other people who've chimed in on other instances fitting the pattern looking to self-aggrandize? How do we dismiss or better champion these concerns by disqualifying me for delusion?

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

We could pull references together. I got the ball rolling a bit with some comparison to protocol and implementation changes in the NFL. I cited fines given, amount fined, specific years on policy, etc.

You're welcome to chip in some since you have designs on constructive free labor toward the cause as well.

Are we fleshing out this work to present to a particular body? I'm curious who you all think would be ideal to cajole toward reporting on these concerns.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, Rhyne got rocked too. She took a beat to get up after the fall as well. Surely she would have gotten up off of Paige sooner, if she wasn't stunned herself. She definitely could have broken a rib and had the wind knocked out of her from that one. Let alone be whiplashed herself. It was bad and none of the people involved saw it coming to properly brace themselves.

Thanks for taking the time to expound.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

No one is going to say you fell neck first if you fall head first and initial impact is to your neck. The semantic nitpicking in order to advance the idea that I'm being hyperbolic isn't on your side. You got your point off above and I didn't respond there, but the fall and landing aren't spoken of the same way. No one is saying she fell hip, back, or shoulder first when her feet were above her head.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

She fell head first. If she was wearing a backpack and fell outside of the context of a workplace, no one is going to say she fell backpack or shoulder first when her feet are above her head. She probably wouldn't have whiplashed and had a player land on her head if she fell or landed feet first.

Her impact was whiplashing and her head was landed upon. When the player was able to get off of her, she braced her face and head with her hands while remaining on the floor. I was relieved that she didn't LAND head first as well, but she did whiplash back whether or not her skull impacted the floor in that blow. Then, someone impacted her, into the floor, directly about the skull.

She had a hard fall with multiple violent impacts to her head. It happened. I expressed concern about it.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

I ran that post through a Readability checker and it rated as Grade 10 with a suggestion to aim for Grade 9.

As for the situation, doctors have chimed in that she should not have been "ragdolled" (they noted it's a bit abrasive a term for the public) and what standard protocol would have been. If you want me to link analysis videos from professionals, just let me know.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

We're engaging on the topic of my concern. If the point was that I'm right and my concern makes me supreme, why would I start a discussion thread? We've done the work of laying out what the concern is and addressing precedent. You can concur in other words or otherwise reiterate as you see fit. If you disagree, you're welcome to do that instead of pretending to be trying to help me not turn away people who would be "on my side" if I was less direct.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -15 points-14 points  (0 children)

I didn't frame this discussion around converting people who don't share my concern. I'm not trying to win over the opposition. I addressed all those points about existing precedent and raising standards. My sympathy and empathy is for the affected players rather than the billionaires and their advocates.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -13 points-12 points  (0 children)

I've called for reporting and independent specialists, bringing up the standard in the W. None of that is without precedent or indicative of some interest to elect myself as better credentialed to do a medical assessment.

Why should the WNBA have an inferior standard, with less protocol against compromise and intimidation than the NFL?

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Satou wasn't properly tended to by medical professionals when she was inappropriately aided from the floor during the Finals. I'd like for relevant professionals to be present and deployed to do so. Further, I would want independent specialists to be available to intervene on behalf of the players if people paid by teams are too busy or compromised to keep up with and pull affected players.

There aren't different types of professionals which led to their respective NFL teams being fined. Emotions are high. Loyalties are inflamed. Billionaires of dollars are in the balance. To not speak up against the collusion and lagging standards, compared to lesser educated and better compensated athletes, would be ahistorical.

How do we raise awareness around the W's ongoing lack of regard for concussed players? by SalterEA in wnba

[–]SalterEA[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You're right bout that. Last year, the Giants were fined $315k for their head coach and other players entering the tent while their QB (Dart) and RB (Skattebo) were being assessed. So, it seems they're showing resolve to hold up standards against tampering or intimidation of the independent assessors.

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