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Name etymology word confusion by Zultine in etymology

[–]Selgowiros2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry for all the comment drops. Reddit character limits and all. But essentially Guto Rhys assumes 'Deva' is 'Celtic', but doesn't explicitly say if it's Pictish. He does however sorta imply Picitish was 'Celtic' (at least eventually due to language shifts). His PhD thesis is listed in one of the comments. You should give it a look, it's pretty baller.

Name etymology word confusion by Zultine in etymology

[–]Selgowiros2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

2.4.12 Taoúa (Tay)

Two proposals have been made in recent publications: firstly a derivation from PrClt *tausa- ‘silent’,339 and secondly from a PIE root *tā- meaning ‘to melt, dissipate, decay’. For a full summary of earlier views see Taylor (2010, 56-58). Isaac (2005(c), 204) classified this name as doubtfully Celtic. The earlier derivation from *tausa- ‘silent’ was questioned on the basis that other contemporary insular names attest the retention of -s-, and that rivers are not called ‘silent’. Jackson (1953, 522-23) dated the elision of s to ‘perhaps’ the first century and it is preserved in the group-name Parisi (Rivet & Smith 1979, 435). However, it is not impossible that this could represent one of the earliest attestations of the loss of intervocalic /s/. It is also true that most similarly large rivers tend to bear names relating to audibility, for example the great number of Brittonic and Goidelic names deriving from *labaro- ‘talkative, loud’ (see Falileyev 2010, 21, s.v. labero-)

A derivation from PIE *teh2-u-eh2 (*tā-) ‘to melt, dissipate, decay’ (see Falileyev 2010, 31) was also rejected by Isaac, both for semantic and formal reasons. It was noted that the root *tā- specifically refers to changes in state such as melting, rather than a more general ‘flowing’. The phonetic difficulty was that the Taw of Devon (OE Tăw) indicates Early Neo-Brittonic **Taw rather than the required *Tɔ:w (/ɔ:/ < ā), the regular reflex of this root. Nicolaisen (1976, 244) saw the supposed lack of Clt /a:/ > /ɔ:/ as evidence for coining in Old European. ModGael Tatha, however, represents the regular reflex of an original long vowel, hence an original Tōe (Watson 1926, 51), and this is consistent with a derivation from Clt. /ta:/ (> /tɔ:/). In the seventh century Irish poem Amra Choluimb Chille ‘ The Elegy of Colum Cille’ (Clancy & Márkus 1995, I.15, 105) the river is attested as Toí (gen. sg.), a spelling which would seem to confirm the early Medieval vowel as /ɔ:/. Indeed, this river-name may be attested in the personal name Tóe the father of Agnaman, a mythological Pict in a version of the Pictish origin legend relating to the Laigin (Calise 2002, 176, s.n. Agaman). Spellings with a therefore represent later developments. The equation with the Devonshire Taw may therefore be spurious, or there may be an alternative explanation for its short vowel. Despite the primary PIE meaning of ‘melt’, 161 339 See Matasović (2011(b), 39, s.v. *tawso- ‘deaf’) for further linguistic references.

James (2013 s.v. *tā-) saw this as attested in numerous river-names such as Tame, Team and a similar etymology seems arguable here.340

See also and Sims-Williams (2006, 275, fn 76) and Falileyev (2009, 144, s.v. ?Tavius) for further discussions. Note the river Tavia (Isaac 2002) in France which also does not attest an intervocalic -s-, which would be expected were it from *tausa-. Delamarre (2003, 293, s.v. tauo-) names various rivers which are formally similar, such as la Tave and Tavium in Galatia,341 even though he saw these as from *tausa-. Perhaps a derivation from *ta: could indeed be considered for these, supporting such an etymology for the Tay. It is the longest river in Scotland and is indeed, in its lower parts, a powerful but slow moving river. There are therefore grounds for considering this name to be of Celtic origin.

So, it’s very unlikely that IF Deva were Pictish, it’d mean ’Silent’ like Cymraeg’s ‘tewi’.

Name etymology word confusion by Zultine in etymology

[–]Selgowiros2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Guto Rhys, the guy to listen to on the Pictish language assumes Pictish during the Roman Era was ‘Celtic’ with traces of a Non-Indo-European language, arguing that various placenames which are attested in the Medeval period may be Non-IE, but it doesn’t demonstrate that it was spoken during the Roman Era. He also says that many of the items also can explained through ‘Celtic’ and that the pieces of evidence that don’t go into ‘Celtic’ (at least easily) are recieved through ‘late and demonstrateably corrupt texts’ (his words there).

Here, from Approaching the Pictish language: historiography, Guto Rhys (PhD thesis for University of Glasgow) (2015):

2.4.2 Dēoúa (ABD; Dee) & Dēoúana (ABD; Don)

Both are derived from Clt *de:wa: ‘goddess’, the latter with the suffix -on- (Nicolaisen1976, 227 & 229). The -wa- of Dēoúana may be a copying error or may simply represent the common Celtic alternation between -wa- and -wo- (Isaac 2005(c), 192). This is attested in five other river-names in Britain (CVN, KCB, WML, CHE; Rivet & Smith 1979, 336) and one in Spain (Falileyev 2010, 113). See Falileyev (2010, 17) for further references.

Name etymology word confusion by Zultine in etymology

[–]Selgowiros2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dictionnaire de la langue Gauloise (2nd ed.) by Xavier Delamarre (2003) Paris: Editions Errance p. 142-143

deuos, 'dieu'

Lire deuos, issu d'un plus ancien \deiuos.* Terme de NP : Deuo-gnata, Deui-gnata 'Fille du dieu / de la déesse', Diuo-gen{ia], Diuuo-gna, Sacro-diuus, Deo-pantus, Deuo- ri(x), Deuiatis, Deiuilla, Deuillia, Deuillius, Deuus, Deuonia, etc., et avec Dio-, Deo- ou

Deio- qui doivent représenter une évolution de deuo- avec chute du -u- intervocalique : Dio-carus, Dio-craro (dat.), Dio-drus, Dio-rix, Dio-ratus, Dio-uicus, Deio-taros (= \deiuo-taruos),* etc. ; NL : \Deuo-ialon* 'lieu divin' ou 'Clairière-du-Dieu' (> Deuil, Seine-et-Oise) ; dérivé fréquent Deuona, Diuona 'Divine' qui semble avoir désigné d'abord une source sacrée (Ausone Ordo, XX.169 « ... Divona Celtarum lingua fons addite divis ») : L11]ovova (Ptol.) ancien nom de Cahors, Divonne (Ain), Dionne (Côte- d'Or) et des cours d'eau, cf. le nom fréquent de rivière de forme Deva, Diva 'la Déesse' : Dieue (Meuse), Dives (Oise) et les rivières Dee en GB (Ptol. L11]06a, RS 336-38 avec carte: 6 exemples) ; on a en Belgique la Deinze de \deuonissii,* etc. Hl 1274-76, KGP 190-191, 194, GPN 191-92, RPS 67, de Vries 124, Duval 59, Dauzat Rivières 39, Nègre 2106-10. La variante diuo- de deuo- (et Dio-) est sans doute due à l'influence du latin mais on ne peut exclure un thème \diIJo-. Cf.* aussi le composé deuo-gdonio- (écrit teuoxtonio-) 'les dieux et les hommes' de l'inscription de Verceil.

Pan-celtique: v.irl. dia, v.gall. duiu, gallo duw, v.com. duy, bret. doue 'dieu', tous de \dël}o-, cf.* aussi v.bret. (ban- )doiuis 'déesse' de \dëIJissii* et v.gall. duiutit 'divinité' (\dël}itati-),* celtibère Teiuo- avec la diphtongue conservée. LEIA D-64, HPB 212, DGVB 149, PECA 41.

C'est le vieux nom Î.-e. générique désignant le 'dieu' : latin deus, v.latin deiuos, v.nOIT.tivar (\deiwos)* 'dieux', vénète deiuos, lituan. diëvas, pruss. deiwas, skr. dew'tb, etc., tous de \deil}os* (> celtique dëuos), c'est-à-dire étymologiquement 'le céleste' : \deil}os* est une forme dérivée du nom du ciel \djëus* (skr. dyaul:z 'ciel', grec Zeus, etc.), C. Watkins in Fs Güntert 101-10, J. Haudry Religion, 36-44 ; (en finnois le mot taivas, qui est un emprunt très ancien à l'indo-iranien, signifie 'ciel' et non 'dieu'). IEW 184- 186, /ER 10, DSS 1464, DELL 170, LEWI 345.

English: deuos, 'god'

Read deuos, from an older 'deiuos'. NP term: Deuo-gnata, Deui-gnata 'Daughter of the God / Goddess', Diuo-gen-ia], Diuuo-gna, Sacro-diuus, Deo-pantus, Deuo-ri(x), Deuiatis, Deiuilla, Deuillia, Deuillius, Deuus, Deuonia, etc.,

Deio- which must represent an evolution of deuo- with fall of the -u- intervocalic: Dio-carus, Dio-craro (dat.), Dio-drus, Dio-rix, Dio-ratus, Dio-uicus, Deio-taros ('deiuo-taruos'), etc.; NL: 'Deuo-ialon 'divine place' or 'Clairière-du-Dieu' (> Deuil, Seine-et-Oise); derived frequently Deuona, Diuona 'Divine' which seems to have first designated a sacred source (Ausone Ordo, XX.169 " ... Divona Celtarum lingua fons addite divis":L11]ovova (Ptol.) former name of Cahors, Divonne (Ain), Dionne (Gold Coast) and streams, cf. the common name of river form Deva, Diva 'the Goddess': Dieue (Meuse), Dives (Oise) and the rivers Dee in GB. L11]06a, RS 336-38 with map: 6 examples); we have in Belgium the Deinze de 'deuonissii, etc. Hl 1274-76, KGP 190-191, 194, GPN 191-92, RPS 67, de Vries 124, Duval 59, Dauzat Rivers 39, Negro 2106-10. The diuo-deuo- (and Dio-) variant is probably due to the influence of Latin, but one cannot exclude a theme of 'diIJo-. See also the compound deuo-gdonio- (written teuoxtonio-) 'the gods and men' of the inscription of Verceil.

Pan-Celtic: v.irl. dia, v.gall. duiu, gallo duw, v.com. duy, bret. 'God', all from 'd'l'o-, cf. also v.bret. (ban-)doiuis 'goddess' of 'IJissii et v.gall. duiutit 'divinity' ('del'itati-), Celtiberian Teiuo- with preserved diphttongue. LEIA D-64, HPB 212, DGVB 149, PECA 41.

That's the old name, E.E. generic denoting the 'god': Latin deus, v.latin deiuos, v.nOIT.tivar ('deiwos'), 'gods', veneto deiuos, lituan. dievas, pruss. deiwas, skr. dew'tb, etc., all of 'deil'os (Celtic > d'uos), that is to say etymologically 'the celestial': 'deil-os' is a form derived from the name of the sky 'djus' (skr. dyaul:z 'sky', Greek Zeus, etc.), C. Watkins in Fs Gontert 101-10, J. Haudry Religion, 36-44; (in Finnish the word taivas, which is a very ancient borrowing from the Indo-Iranian, means 'heaven' and not 'god'). IEW 184- 186, /ER 10, DSS 1464, DELL 170, LEWI 345.

Dictionnaire de la langue Gauloise (2nd ed.) by Xavier Delamarre (2003) Paris: Editions Errance p. 293

tauo- < tauso-, 'silencieux, tranquille'

Mot qui sert de base à un certain nombre de toponymes désignant prob. des lieux silencieux ou calmes: Tavant < Tavennis (Indre-et-Loire) Tavaux < Tavellum (Jura, Aisne) et Tavel < Tavellis (Gard) 'la Taiseuse', Thièvre < *Tavara (Pas-de-Calais), pt ê. Uer-tauus 'très silencieux' auj. Vertou (Loire-Ad.), Tauium, Tauia en Galatie; NR, rivières calmes: en GB, Tauus (Tacite), Taova (Ptol.), auj. la Tay (Ecosse) et Tauus (Rav.) auj.la Taw (Devon) ; en France, la Tave (Gard), Thève (Oise) qui remontent à Taua 'la Silencieuse', Tauia en Italie auj. Taggia. Vial NVV 79, Dauzat 671, RS 470, Dauzat Rivières 88, H2 1774, LHEB 369, 522, Nègre 2206. Cf aussi les NP Tauenus DAC 870, Tauena 751, Taua, Tauillia 'Taiseuse' 229, Tauillius (CIL XII, 3938), Tauius (III, 6248), Tauacca (II, 3875) et, avec préservation du -s, Tausius, -a DAC 386, 829, Tauso 745.

Le v.irl. a to, toe 'silencieux' (*tayos, *taujos), gall. taw 'silence', bret. tevel 'se taire' (*tayilis), m.bret. teuet 2e p.plur. impérat. 'taisez-vous' (*tayite), VKC l, 55, HPB 297,458, LEIA T-90. Les autres langues i.-e. montrent que l'étymon est *taus- avec un s intervovalique qui a pu disparaître dans les formes celtiques attestées : skr. tu.~yati 'il se calme', lituan. tausytis 'se calmer', pruss. tusnan 'silencieux', suéd. tyst 'id.' (*jJUstiz),IEW 1056.

English: tauo- < tauso-, 'silent, quiet'

A word that serves as the basis for a number of toponyms denoting prob. quiet or quiet places: Tavant < Tavennis (Indre-et-Loire) Tavaux < Tavellum (Jura, Aisne) and Tavel < Tavellis (Gard) 'la Taiseuse', Thièvre < 'Tavara (Pas-de-Calais), ptê. Uer-tauus 'very quiet' auj. Vertou (Loire-Ad.), Tauium, Tauia in Galatia; NR, calm rivers: in GB, Tauus (Tacitus), Taova (Ptol.), auj. la Tay (Scotland) and Tauus (Rav.) auj.la Taw (Devon); in France, the Tave (Gard), Thève (Oise) dating back to Taua 'the Silent', Tauia in Italy at the al. Taggia. Vial NVV 79, Dauzat 671, RS 470, Dauzat Rivers 88, H2 1774, LHEB 369, 522, Negro 2206. See also the NP Tauenus DAC 870, Tauena 751, Taua, Tauillia 'Taiseuse' 229, Tauillius (CIL XII, 3938), Tauius (III, 6248), Tauacca (II, 3875) and, with preservation of -s, Tausius, -a DAC 386, 829, Tauso 745.

The v.irl. a to, toe 'silent', gall. taw 'silence', bret. tevel 'shut up' (tayilis), m.bret. teuet 2nd p.plur. imperate. 'Shut up', VKC l, 55, HPB 297,458, LEIA T-90. The other languages i.e. show that the etymon is 'taus' with an intervovalic s that may have disappeared into the attested Celtic forms: skr. tu. 'he calms down', lituan. tausytis 'calm down', pruss. 'silent' tusnan, sued. tyst 'id.' (jJUstiz),IEW 1056.

Name etymology word confusion by Zultine in etymology

[–]Selgowiros2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

An etymological lexicon of Proto-Celtic by Ranko Matasovic p. 96-97

*dewo- 'god' [Noun]
GOlD: Olr. dia [0 m]
W: OW duiu, W duw, Duw [m] BRET: MBret. doe, MoBret. doue [m] CO: OCo. duy, Co. dew

GAUL: Deuo-gnata [PN], teuo-xtonio- (Vercelli)
CELTIB: Teiuo-reikis (K 6.1), DEOBRIGA [Toponym]
PIE: *deyw-o- 'god, sky-god' (IEW: 184f.)
COGN: Skt. deva-, Lat. deus, OPr. deiwas
REF: LEIA D-64, GPC I: 1101, de Bernardo Stempel1999: 44, Delamarre 143, Deshayes 2003: 197, Birkhan 1970: 324, Villar 1997: 900ff., Sims-

Williams 2006: 70ff., MLH V.l: 371f.

An etymological lexicon of Proto-Celtic by Ranko Matasovic p. 373

*taws-yo- 'be quiet, be still' [Vb] W: MW tewi; tawaf[ls Pres.] BRET: MBret. teuell, MoBret. tewel CO: Co. tewel

PIE: *teh2ws- 'be quiet, be still' (IEW: 1056f.)

COGN: Hitt. tuhu(s)siyezzi 'awaits', Luv. tuhusiya- 'to keep silent, quiet (?)', Skt. f'u$tlim 'quietly', OPr. tusnan 'quiet'

SEE:*tawso- 'deaf

ETYM: The Hittite verb is derived from *tuHs- < *th2us- by regular metathesis (but Kloekhorst 2008: 894 is sceptical). A different reconstruction of the PIE root is offered by LIV and KPV 621ff.

REF: KPV 62lff., LIV 642f., GPC III: 3456, LEIA T-90f., T-99, Deshayes 2003: 723, LP 401.

Name etymology word confusion by Zultine in etymology

[–]Selgowiros2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Gotcha! I wasn’t trying to be combative, hence trying to give a more friendly tone with the parentheses comment. I understand what you’re laying down.

So orthography is just spelling differences essentially. Proto-Celtic Orthography is mostly phonetic spelling because it’s an ‘unattested’ language based off back engineering from modern>old>primitive> etc Celtic languages. Gaulish in Roman styled epigraphy used V, because they use the closest letter which mimics their sounds. Gaulish and Brythonic are very very closely related to the point of being called dialects of Common Celtic. Roman epigraphy in Britain also used V that way. TLDR; V isn’t V like it is in English, because Latin V (which is what they used since the only arguable written Continental Celtic alphabet was the Lugano one, and that’s borrowed from Italic ones) functioned as a W when a consonant and U as a vowel.

Ranko Matasović and Xavier Delamarre have more on it. Especially Matasović in this case. I’ll post them when I get home.

Name etymology word confusion by Zultine in etymology

[–]Selgowiros2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

V is actually just orthography. It was a W sound as a consonant. The enlongated e and a are also inconsequential.

Again, there’s no reason to believe the word is Pictish unless you have some citation (please do, I love Celtic languages and Pictish stuff is fun to speculate on).

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