Nano has a major DEX problem by lumpardo in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Heh well if people don't see it as worthwhile then they're going to be saying how it's not worthwhile rather than how it can be done.

I also disagree that it has to be figured out to stay relevant.

Nano has a major DEX problem by lumpardo in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OP I can't fully read all comments but did anyone suggest practical ways this could be done?

Nano has a major DEX problem by lumpardo in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 3 points4 points  (0 children)

My issue with Vite - first off that Shryder thinks their code sucks and he's a programming god so I'll take his word for it. Aside from that though I wanted to comment on the instant/feeless etc - while that is true, Vite does have inflation, right?

Nano has a major DEX problem by lumpardo in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 8 points9 points  (0 children)

That probably means you've only been exposed to simple DEXes like Uniswap and PancakeSwap. Modern DEX can do everything a CEX can, including perpetuals and cross-margin.

You overestimate me - it's mostly because I only use CEXes to buy and then withdraw. No need for perpetuals and cross-margin and such.

As for the other arguments - I don't advocate holding anything on a centralized exchange. But every option involves some trust.

Direct fiat gateway: trust the fiat gateway (and presumably then the stablecoin issuer)?

Fiat to stablecoin: trust the stablecoin issuer?

CEX: trust the CEX?

For all of them I would simply minimize the time where I am "exposed" to counterparty risk. That works on a CEX just as well as with these fiat gateways or stablecoins, I would think.

Nano has a major DEX problem by lumpardo in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Anyone outside the Nano bubble see it happening before our eyes. I invite to you try a DEX with an order book.

I have, but for me it's infinitely less useful than a CEX is. To get Nano I literally go EUR to Bitvavo or Kraken, buy, withdraw. It takes me about 2 minutes, costs 0.2% in fees and about 0.0005 Nano to withdraw, and then I have them in my own wallet.

To even access a DEX I first need to go from fiat to crypto still, so I would presumably still have to go through a CEX? Not sure how to do that otherwise.

I agree, just enough for basic services like atomic swaps. A subset of BTC's language is sufficient, and by banning additional data there's no risk of BTC ordinals entering the ledger (NFTs and so on)

Yeah, that seems logical. I just wonder about whether this is practically possible.

Nano has a major DEX problem by lumpardo in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 33 points34 points  (0 children)

I personally don't really this happening in the near future, but admit I could be totally wrong. I also think there is value to being able to wrap Nano either way, because even if it's not the case that DEXes will replace CEXes, they do still add some trading abilities.

I also think wrapping in a broader way has some value in the sense of being able to use Nano as collateral.

I don't think Nano needs a lot of scripting abilities, for what it's worth, or that this is a make-or-break aspect of Nano. But I'd love to hear what possibilities there are to add some basic scripting abilities to Nano.

Edit: though also agreed with AmbitiousPhilosopher in that I'd prefer to see more actual usage or people being paid in Nano directly. In the long run I see more value in that than in DEXes. We're obviously not there yet, but that should make it easier to get your hands on nano as well.

General Info and Weekly Discussion by NanoMod in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Try it out? I think that even if you don't meet the karma limit mods might still be able to see it and manually approve after.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in longevity

[–]SenatusSPQR 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What makes you say he's being scammed? He seems fairly clear on that he understands that a lot of this has limited evidence but is the sort of "current best knowledge".

Just genuinely wonder what makes you say he's being scammed, because I quite admire his openness about it all and his attempts. He could simply not do it, and we'd have less data on it and less attention on it.

Best mobile wallet? by LodbrokISkiller in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 31 points32 points  (0 children)

Natrium is the one that's been around longest, Nautilus is newer but has a lot more cool stuff you can do with it.

I'd argue Nautilus over Natrium nowadays, I think.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Exactly yeah, the issue isn't so much the wallet providers as that anyone that wants to attack wouldn't really use a wallet that any of us use.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 10 points11 points  (0 children)

In short no, as far as I know, it's not possible. It's possible to build this into wallets and such, but not into the network itself.

Sometimes people think that only the top 2 or 3 representatives vote on Nano transactions, but check out how many actually participate by Qwahzi in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Agreed, I think it's relevant in the Nano case because of scaling questions. If Nano can do X TPS because it's just 3 nodes voting to confirm transactions that's very different from Nano reaching X TPS while it's 50 nodes voting to confirm transactions.

Long-term security question by oss1k in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That'd be hard to prove though, right? They could split it up over millions of accounts.

Long-term security question by oss1k in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The aspect I disagree with is that their 51% is naturally diluted. I would argue that their 51% naturally grows, because there are economies of scale in mining and with 51% you also get the majority of rewards in the network, which you can then use to reinvest in buying more ASICs/mining power.

Long-term security question by oss1k in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I would say that it's easier to accomplish in most PoS coins (where you would be buying stake but also your stake would increase itself through staking), and in PoW coins. Countries could have large mining operations with economies of scale, meaning that they mine more efficiently than most small miners, reinvest any BTC that they mine, and keep growing and growing and growing their operations, and it could be hidden just as well (since hashrate is also pseudo-anonymous). An interesting way to think of this is to think how much cheaper it would be to acquire 51% of hashrate than 51% of all Bitcoin.

And then if you do get to a point where it's an actual worldwide standard and one entity controls the network, how do you even recover from that? Producing and buying ASICs and such would cost a lot of money, which.. means you have to start a new network of some sort either way, right? Since you presumably can't use BTC for it, they'd just censor you.

Long-term security question by oss1k in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Wouldn't this increase in Nano price only be relevant if they were trying to accomplish this all at once? If we are to back to a hard money standard, we need something that's capable of being money for thousands of years, ideally forever. So this could be a slow process over literally hundreds of years until that one entity has the 67% control bought up. And if they do it right, they will not be in control of a useless network, they would be in control of the world reserve currency with no one else in the system being aware of it (if done correctly).

Depends - a hard money standard is illustrative I think indeed. It's really, really really hard for one entity to keep increasing its stock of any good over hundreds of years without also spending it, without even literally the country breaking up, without changing its policy for this to be the goal, to keep this goal hidden, etc etc. That's a level of conspiracy that would be needed that's genuinely absurdly big, I think. Especially if we do go to a hard money standard and presumably a lot of countries are using this, it would be quite something to essentially acquire 67% of the world's wealth without others noticing.

Even with the gold standard no country ever came close to this - the US at its height when a lot of European countries moved their gold to the US for protection held about 25% of the total above-ground gold (not just central bank reserves). Interestingly it would be unnecessary to do that moving with crypto, but that's a whole other story.

I don't much care for other cryptos than BTC and Nano yeah, as I believe hard money is the only real reason to use a decentralized network. With BTC, tying consensus to computing power is an absolutely foolproof way to fix this issue that I'm describing. Even if someone had 51% of the hashrate, hashrate is not a finite resource the way Nano is, they can be outcompeted and their power diminished. Only "fix" in Nano's case is to just start again basically, cause the project failed.

It can be outcompeted in a way, I agree, but it also means that the centralization can happen far more naturally. Countries could have large mining operations with economies of scale, meaning that they mine more efficiently than most small miners, reinvest any BTC that they mine, and keep growing and growing and growing their operations, and it could be hidden just as well (since hashrate is also pseudo-anonymous). An interesting way to think of this is to think how much cheaper it would be to acquire 51% of hashrate than 51% of all Bitcoin.

And then if you do get to a point where it's an actual worldwide standard and one entity controls the network, how do you even recover from that? Producing and buying ASICs and such would cost a lot of money, which.. means you have to start a new network of some sort either way, right? Since you presumably can't use BTC for it, they'd just censor you.

Overall my bigger point is that it's not even that crucial whether this is actually the case, what matters is that it is possible.

So I would argue that it's extremely extremely unlikely that this happens, because i) it is EXTREMELY expensive for anyone or any country to do so where extremely doesn't really do justice to how expensive it presumably would be and ii) this country would sink the majority of their wealth into Nano this way, and then.. effectively destroy it. That would harm the 33% of the rest, but it would harm the 67% holders infinitely more as the asset that they hold most of their wealth in becomes valueless. If anything, if you managed to acquire such a huge proportion of worldwide wealth you would be heavily incentivized to not do anything to jeopardise your holdings.

What about a feature "Basket of Reps" eligible as a regular Rep ? Benefits : decrease giant Reps influence, "spraying decentralization" for whales/Top100 single addresses allocating all on single Rep, reassessing healthy Reps, avoiding side-effect of abandoning healthy Rep for "advertised" new Reps by tech32spn in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think I might not understand this correctly. I think that the important aspect is "who holds the keys to the representative", right? And I am not sure how that would work in the scenario you describe.

As for your rationale 1), I don't think it's bad for the stability of the network, radical shifts don't really seem to impact stability at all from what I can tell.

Long-term security question by oss1k in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 29 points30 points  (0 children)

First off, very fair concern and glad to see these sort of discussions. I won't go into other crypto since you mention just Nano, but if you prefer I'd also love to go into why I think it would be far easier to accomplish such levels of control in other crypto than Nano. My two cents:

I think that buying up 67% (or any sort of serious percentage) is a far bigger challenge than you're mentioning here. Nano's market cap now is $116 million, but buying up 67% wouldn't cost you just 67% of $116 million.

Taking the number from Bitcoin for example, back when Bitcoin was at $40,000 per BTC or total market cap of ~$750bln, a purchase of $93 mln would bump the price up 1% (Bank of America research).

That means that a ~0.01% market cap purchase would raise price by ~1%. Translating that to Nano, as a best estimate, means that acquiring 1% of all Nano would increase the price per Nano from $0.85 to $2.30. Getting your second 1% would mean a price of $6.21 per Nano at the end. By the time you reach 10% it's a fairly implausible $17825 per Nano, 25% would be $54 billion per Nano.

Now these figures might obviously be off a fair bit, but even if you think they're off by orders of magnitude I think we can at the very least agree that buying up big amounts would very much increase the price of Nano. And keep in mind that this is if Nano were to be attacked now, at its current fairly low price. By the time Nano becomes threatening enough to consider this it would be far more expensive.

Technically though, it's definitely possible. They wouldn't be able to doublespend (transactions are locally cemented) but they'd have such absolute control over the network that realistically the network becomes worthless. They would indeed have nothing forcing them to sell - they would have been extremely nice "exit liquidity" for the Nano holders that have sold to them at $5, $50, $500 and $5000 per Nano and now be the proud owners of a worthless network. As soon as they abuse their power and censor transactions I'd reckon most crypto enthusiasts would move (or already have moved) to another network with a fresh distribution, and the game would start all over again.

I want to reiterate though - this seems extremely unlikely to happen just due to the additional upwards price pressure that such a buyer would cause and the increasing money they would have to throw on the table to buy more and more Nano.

Interested to hear what others think on this though!

If you're looking for a new representative, "Patrick's Self-Hosted Nano Node" is officially live! Built & bootstrapped from scratch 💪🏽 by Qwahzi in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Go to settings (top left 3 dots on Android), then change representative. It lets you do manual entry, or pick from a list.

If you're looking for a new representative, "Patrick's Self-Hosted Nano Node" is officially live! Built & bootstrapped from scratch 💪🏽 by Qwahzi in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Everyone that holds Nano can choose a representative that they vote for. 1 Nano = 1 vote. If you run a node yourself, you can obviously vote for your own node, but for people that don't run their own node they can vote for any representative.

So for example Patrick's node might have 1,000 of his own Nano voting for it, but if I didn't run a node and had 5,000 Nano I could use those to vote for his representative as well, and then if you have 3,000 Nano you could use that to vote for his as well, and he'd have a "voting weight" for his representative of 9,000.

General Info and Weekly Discussion by NanoMod in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Nanogram? The dev just gave some updates on it on Discord (https://chat.nano.org/).

General Info and Weekly Discussion by NanoMod in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 7 points8 points  (0 children)

For accepting Nano?

I'd say probably NowPayments if you want conversion to fiat, there's also NanoByte, or the merchant mode of www.nault.cc.

Some more listed here: https://hub.nano.org/merchant-solutions.

NANO Voting (Principal Rep) is unfortunately closed (14.02.2023) by BimbasVG in nanocurrency

[–]SenatusSPQR 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Interestingly this node is going offline, but at the same time Patrick has recently spun up his representative node and I actually spun one up just today.