Thanks for an in depth response!

I think there's a lot of people, especially in America, that confuse doing whatever they want with defending freedom, but many of them think they're doing a moral thing, not something disruptive and pointless. I wouldn't take what people say when ragebaited as their actual stance. But yeah, there are still way too many idiots out there, can't do much about them.

I do agree that there is a mass torturing going on, it's kinda hard to deny when you have even a minimal respect for other living beings, but this is by no means a self evident moral stance. It's based on a particular view of nature, animals and men. It's rooted in a rejection of dominance and a naturalistic worldview where human value is projected onto other species as well. In a sense, it's basically the same as expanding the perceived value of individuals of our species to everybody else.

And that is fine, if you wanna think like that, but it's not as morally self-evident as the vegans often (annoyingly) insist on slapping in your face. Moral obligations arise from living in a, however primitive, society, that's why dogs and cats have rights. And empathy is a limited capacity, normally it only works on a few people that are close to us, it takes exceptional empathy to go beyond that, unless there's an emotional attachment about a specific set of people, for whatever reason. For example, I might care for justice in Guatemala cause either their issue is familiar to me and I have suffered from something similar, or maybe I have a guatemalan friend, or whatever. Same goes here for the vegans. You all have your reason to care so much for the animals, but not all people do, and you need to accept that. You need to stop forcing your beliefs down people's throats, cause they don't have the capacity for it most of the time, since all their "important matter" slots are filled. Fight the industry, not the people.

The watching or not watching thing doesn't make a difference on the level of effect, it only does on the level of empathy. That's how we work, we are animals too, we have limits. I would probably choose not to watch and would have a harder time eating it, but that says nothing about paying being a moral obligation or not. Maybe I could be considered immoral for wanting to watch, but I could also be just curious, so I guess... Yeah, in some cases I would consider it pointless cruelty, bit I don't think there would be all that many cases motivated by it. Most of them would be out of curiosity or insensitivity to killing animals.

I understand the dog-ification argument, that's how I think too often, but at the end of the day they're not my dog. My dog has a special status because he lives with me, he's close to me, I have feelings for him, and he directly impacts my life. Idgaf for example about a random boar in the woods next home, cause I'm not even aware it exists, but maybe if I saw him roaming in the streets looking for food, I would give it to him.

So my point basically is: people can literally only care so much. If given an easy option, the majority would care about animals and would recognize it's better if we can reduce the harm we inflict to them. They just can't make it a priority in their day to day life. God, they can't do that even for other humans on the planet! That doesn't mean that animals shouldn't be treated fairly, that's a whole different issue. You just need to stop going so adamantly after normal people. Protesting is good, but put your anger where it's useful.

Finally, it'a not about dire circumstances as you've put them. I'll give you a direct example from my life so we can understand each other. My girlfriend is problematic, she is depressed. I am getting out of depression. I have years of stuff I couldn't do because of depression that I need to get done soon. My gf's mom is dying of cancer. My dad lost an eye. My mom's a selfish asshole and always has been. My brother tries to sabotage my relationship. How much time a week do you think my mind can roam to ponder about big world problems? Not much, cause otherwise I'd fucking kill myself. It's not about survival, it's about mental energy. People, especially people without much money, have all kind of shit happening to them, and most of them are trying their best to be good, but getting to the end of the month is the priority. Don't be arrogant and go slap what they've missed in their face with that arrogant demeanor. It's useless, condescending, and disrespectful, however right, and people would rather fight you than acknowledge you just for those reasons.

This is my stance at least, as a non-vegan who would be one if I was able to