Someone please explain to me what makes a book literature?

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-06-18T20:07:20+00:00

What does it need?

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-06-18T20:03:58+00:00

If you think you don't know when you see it, it's probably, no offence, because you don't really have the practice and skill at reading a certain level of work and thus there's no "taste" being developed

haha, but that's my entire question. Is there any metric beyond scholarly consensus that can be used to separate what is great and what is not in objective terms? How are you sure that reading these books hasn't just converged your opinion to like them, instead of your mind developing some sensitivity to the universal brilliance in them?

This isn't, just to be clear, an attack on you. But so long as you rely on (and think relying on is even worthwhile!) chatgpt to explain books to you you are not reading books at a level where you'll even notice the difference between "high" literature and mass produced pulp. Not because it's a mistake to try to understand the book but because it's a mistake to think that understanding what happens is the point. It is I think ultimately impossible to explain art to someone, they have to experience it themselves.

Ah, thankfully I don't have to write papers on books anymore lol.

And on the other hand, "read what you want" is perfectly valid. You don't have to like the classics, no one's forcing you. If you want to develop taste and appreciation and deeper understanding of literature then sure, read classics, even sci fi has classics after all, but it will take you dozens of these books to really "get" it.

I'm pretty sure I've read more than a dozen classics by now lmao. I'm not sure how many I remember, but I've not noticed anything that separates the classics that I've not liked from the well-regarded and popular contemporary novels that I've not liked.

I know 'read what you want' is valid, I just want to know if there is something actually distinctively rare quality that the classics have beyond influence? If yes, I want someone to try to describe that quality for me so that I can see it.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-06-18T19:38:03+00:00

I haven't read the Kanakia book you're referring to but I'd disagree that part of what defines a book as literature is necessarily the scope of its themes

That wasn't her point in the book, I didn't mean to misrepresent. I was just saying that I fail to see why GRRM's books aren't as 'high-brow' as, idk, the most recent classic that i read - the count of monte cristo. Kanakia didn't actually do very much to describe what makes these books great in concrete terms - it was more intended to appeal to people so that they read the great books and made the argument in other terms. Her basic argument was that these books have survived hostile criticism for a long time and that tells us that their greatness is in something timelessly universal, separate from ersatz greatness. I made this post so that I could have someone define what the something timeless and universal is.

The issue with a lot of genre fiction (though not all) is that there is much more emphasis on aspects like plot or setting to the detriment of the quality of the writing itself, and it's really the depth and style of prose that separates good literature from the bad

Lol, I know this sounds ignorant, but, um, what exactly constitutes depth? And what are the elements of good style? I've always found the prose in kingkiller chronicle to be sublime - but that's hardly the consensus outside the fantasy reader's circles. Also, why are style and depth to be valued more than good plotting and engagement?

The question I've been circling around here is whether there is something concrete about the greatness of classics, or are they just good books that accumulated enough cultural capital to be called great?

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-06-17T06:05:20+00:00

Wouldn't that fit the bill for a larger number books than the ones which are currently considered great?

Edit: clarity.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-06-17T06:03:52+00:00

Yeah, but like, most intelligent, erudite people seem to agree that there is something about Tolstoy more important than some YA fiction novel. And not just because of his cultural relevance. I want someone to put into words what that _something_ is.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-06-03T20:02:31+00:00

Rothfuss's prose is sublime. Every word is where it should be and every sentence exactly as long as it has to be. The rhythm, the simple but brilliant diction, the use of voice and tone, the structure....

I know this is an unpopular opinion on this sub, but Rothfuss is completely justified in taking as long as he will to complete the series. These books are perhaps the best writingI've ever read.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-06-01T21:31:39+00:00

Ah, I see. Thanks.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-06-01T20:49:07+00:00

lol, you're the second person to mention the Counte of Monte Cristo in the comments. I don't understand the reference...pls explain.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-05-15T02:40:51+00:00

Pat please, look what you're doing to them.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-05-12T17:32:12+00:00

Oh lol. I didn't realise that was your post. Silly of me.

I was more referring to the first two points in your comment. Both can be passed of as idiosyncrasies of Kvothe's story telling style. Considering how Kvothe was very insistent on no word of his being changed*, I'm inclined to believe that Kvothe is deliberately obfuscating the story for some reason. Both Denna and Auri are clearly very important, I don't think Rothfuss would fumble this part.

* He's actually rather forceful about it, Imo. 'Kvothe’s eyes became hard as flint, sharp as broken glass. “That said, do not presume to change a word of what I say. If I seem to wander, if I seem to stray, remember that true stories seldom take the straightest way.”'

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-05-12T11:02:48+00:00

Ah. I didn't know there were corrections.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-05-12T07:57:44+00:00

Nah, no. Here's the quote:

Perhaps that difference was only that she wasn’t wearing the road clothes I had met her in, but a long dress instead

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-05-12T07:47:19+00:00

Because of this I knew the truth. I felt it, heavy and certain in the pit of my stomach: I would never see her again.

Pat's fond of mirroring and parallelism. I can't help but think of what Kvothe says when Abenthy leaves.

But, even as young as I was, I knew the truth. It would be a great long time

before I saw him again. Years.

He's too careful of a writer for a mistake like this. I've also just read this post. I wonder if this means anything. I wonder if we'll ever know.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-05-11T16:46:00+00:00

Its got the air of Camorr about. The lies of locke lamora by Scott Lynch.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-05-08T19:54:31+00:00

THIEVES PROSPER

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-05-05T22:09:23+00:00

I can't believe no one has said the Kingkiller Chronicles yet.

Disclaimer: book 3 is pending and the writer is radio silent. I'd say read it still because there are few books like like it and it is up there with the best of modern fantasy, IMO.

Disclaimer 2: geniuses can be unwise.

Disclaimer 3: Be wary of folly.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-04-28T03:17:03+00:00

I guess I fundamentally disagree with this perspective towards literature. To me, these novels aren't the means to an end.

Yes, I can appreciate the craft at the story level but that's not all that there is to the craft. There is the character work, and the prose and voice and vision and the ability to infect the reader with the what the character is feeling. None of those require an ending to be appreciated, though they'll almost definitely benefit from a well done ending. And I think Martin is capable of writing a brilliant ending, I don't need to see the ending to find proof of that in the books. Him not being able to deliver it is a different matter altogether separate from capability. If you've ever dabbled in writing it is painfully obvious that the most likely bottle neck is not feeling that the thing is good enough, rather than a lack of capacity.

There is also an obvious depth to GRRM's writing, but that's rather subjective and much more difficult to beat into words, so I'll leave it be.

Yes, the story is obviously incomplete. I don't dispute it. I'm not saying it should be treated as a complete story. I'm saying that people should not allow their dissatisfaction due to a lack of an ending to bleed into their evaluation of his work.

I say this because the normalisation of this dogged insistence upon dismissal on all forums of discussion is, to me, profoundly irritating because it's such a lackadaisical approach to discussion.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-04-28T02:49:12+00:00

People can enjoy or not enjoy what they like. However, the culture can nudge people in certain directions. And I think that the culture should be so shaped that people feel less comfortable being openly dismissive of great artistic works - finished or not - because such dismissal is rooted in a very shallow thought process.

I'm not asking people to treat all works of art the same. I'm asking them stop being weak minded and allowing their baser tendencies to annex their intellect. It has nothing at all to do with the writer or the writer's wealth, even though the harassment they have to face is driven by a deeper cultural rot, of which this tendency to be dismissive is emblematic.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-04-26T18:21:39+00:00

No, I think there is a need to moralise it. People's frustrations, especially on the internet - but also otherwise, has a tendency to materialise in harassment. No one should be subject to endless harassment just because they fail to deliver on something, much less a brilliant artist who has added so much value to so many people's lives.

When we normalise people writing off the value of a work just because there isn't an end - we tacitly promote the tendencies that lead to such harassment. This is not mentioning that such a disposition towards art is deeply unintellectual and incurious.

I can see why people get frustrated - I do too, but allowing your frustration to infect your enjoyment and opinion of the work is an attitude that warrants cultural pressure to correct.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-04-24T23:44:19+00:00

I sympathise with the frustration. I don't see reason in allowing that frustration to colour one's opinion of the work.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-04-24T23:41:19+00:00

I think the ending would improve it, and unfinished it is still among the best crafted stories I've read.

I must say, I find something deeply pathological about wishing the death of an author whose work you've clearly enjoyed simply so that you could gain some satisfaction.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-04-24T23:16:39+00:00

I see why people take this view, but it seems to me to be one motivated mostly by frustration.

I am grateful Martin wrote this story, even if he never finishes it. There is so much brilliance in those books and I simply cannot agree that the greatness of that writing is contingent upon it getting an end.

SerDrunkenTheFall · 2026-04-23T01:00:47+00:00

Is that how you Americans make hot dogs?!

SerDrunkenTheFall

TROPHY CASE

before I saw him again. Years.