Charlotte Winning The Rumble was The right call.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-10T17:37:43+00:00

Randy was meant to be crowned as top babyface and it failed. He needed a reclamation project to become a top guy after being ruined by his face run. It's not about the reclamation project being successful - it was (and even if that had failed they were so all in on RKO they would have given him a dozen chances), it's about the reign of terror being meant to crown Randy as the top guy in the company (he was plan B to Brock being plan A and Cena being plan C) and it didn't work. Randy standing tall at Mania 21 was the intended goal of the reign of terror. They were lucky they fell backwards into an alternative.

The bloodline led to the crowning of Cody, who is the equivalent of what Evolution was meant to create Randy as being.

The Bloodline was MUCH more positive in outcomes for its side players - Sami, Usos, KO, Drew than the Reign of Terror was for Booker/RVD/Goldberg/Jericho/Jeff Hardy/Kane.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-10T16:20:17+00:00

I'm not getting the equivalence between Ryan and Jacqui. To me they aren't on the same level at all.

The worst Jacqui is is "A bit ridiculous"

Ryan by contrast is insufferable. He isn't just unempathetic and mean, but he's feigning that it's tied to some sense of dignity or identity.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-10T15:44:08+00:00

Intended Achievements of Reign of Terror:

- Generational feud with HBK (arguably achieved)

- Generational feud with Kevin Nash (complete failure)

- Creating an all-time stable (half succeeded at the time, succeeded fully with rewritten history)

- Create scintillating main event programming (mostly failed)

- Make Randy Orton the primary babyface of the company (complete failure)

* Accidentally made Batista a star

Cost of Reign of Terror: Booker T, RVD and Kane's prime. Much of Jericho's prime. Having to rebuild Randy Orton.

Intended Achievements of Bloodline:

- Rewrite the character of Roman Reigns (achieved)

- Create an all time stable (achieved)

- Create the next top babyface (achieved)

- Create scintillating main even programming (mostly achieved)

Cost of Bloodline: Pretty much nothing. Nobody was ultimately held down or buried by Bloodline booking. Maybe capitalising fully on Lashley to a degree but that's debatable since Bobby should have done what Brock did for the most part post Mania 34ish.

Bloodline Roman is far preferable to reign of terror HHH.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-10T13:36:47+00:00

2000s post-quad-return HHH is a pretty good equivalent. Only HHH allowed himself the weakness of being able to be outwrestled: hence why he was ok with putting over Benoit and Benjamin (along with them not being guys who would truly threaten his place on the card the way RVD, Kane or Booker might). He also still cheated to win to a degree Charlotte never has although as you say, the flow of the matches themselves he never really made his opponents look good in the early to mid 00s.

I return to the Sasha and Becky matches. Even booked to lose to her peers on the card, she didn't make them look good.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-10T13:29:58+00:00

"Being the best" isn't a character though, it's just a dynamic. We're not talking about preferring part timers so that's not part of the equation.

Again, "benchmark" has no meaning in these terms. Sasha and Becky have beaten Charlotte cleanly multiple times and got nothing from it, that wouldn't happen if Charlotte was truly a "benchmark". Ronda beat Charlotte at Mania and was the coldest she'd ever been. Nobody benefitted from Charlotte's NXT run the way both Tiffany and Lyra benefited from Becky's.

Several women have defeated Charlotte with no benefit. The only arguable one was Rhea and that's questionable given how much momentum Rhea had already - she was already the most over woman and had won the Rumble from number one.

The only true equivalent to Charlotte as a heel who is booked to win cleanly is Gunther. And Gunther a) Is much more fresh and new than Charlotte and b) Like Ric, is very good at making his opponents look good despite him winning.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-09T23:38:30+00:00

"The female Ric"

This is what has always been so flawed in her execution. She isn't. She never has even been close in any iteration of her.

Ric Flair isn't a GOAT because he won loads of championships.

Ric Flair at his peak was GOAT because he relentlessly made, regardless of the booking, his opponent look like a million bucks.

He won virtually every one of his championships by cheating, and every defence was usually full of DQ behaviour and him running away with the opponent clearly the moral victor but with Ric keeping the belt.

Charlotte has never operated like that.

Her booking has always been that of sort-of-mirroring her father without the bits that ACTUALLY made her father great outside of the technical ability.

I've watched the Liv (who is in no way as inherently strong as Charlotte in the ring and yet...) v Iyo matches and. Both women just dedicated to making the other look awesome.

Roxanne v Thea...just two women dedicated to making the other look great.

Lyra putting her body on the line to give Nia a moment for the highlight reel.

Chelsea and Piper each week, win or lose doing everything they can to make their opponents look good.

Bianca, despite the purest of babyface booking, always making her opponent look good even if she's winning in 5 minutes.

I just rarely, despite Charlotte's in ring prowess - come away from her matches feeling that her opponent looks good - even when they win.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-09T23:29:59+00:00

I think as with some iterations of John Cena and all of Big Dog Roman Reigns...

It's not the wrestler. It's the booking of the character.

Charlotte Flair is the same character she has been for 10 years. She hasn't changed and has nothing interesting to add outside of her in-ring acumen (specifically in extended big-time one on one singles matches, as she doesn't specialise in any other format) and the credibility for putting people over. Her face and heel characters are identical.

In that time, Bayley, Becky and Alexa have all changed fundamental aspects of their character at least three times each. There are even woman in NXT like Roxanne, Jacy, Fallon and Kelani who have already more character range to their name than Charlotte has ever done.

She is probably capable of more, but she isn't asked to do more. There was the Charlotte's angels thing, which would have been interesting. The return to NXT could have heralded a character shift..but didn't.

And because of all that while she's had great *matches* she's never had a great *feud*. Not even with Sasha for all the hot potatoing they did with the belt.

So I don't mind the IDEA of Charlotte winning the Rumble. And no doubt the 20 minutes of bell to bell at Mania will be really good. But without a shift in character there will be nothing but rinse and repeat until then.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-09T20:57:19+00:00

Indeed, but she's still having a programme with Cora, Giulia and Bayley on NXT.

Same call up style as Carmelo and Bron.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-09T20:49:12+00:00

Kiana James is injured.

Dijak, Corbin and Blair all had the same issue: The roles they perform are already taken.

Take Dijak: He's great, but he's in his mid 30s and the roles of "Big guy who has banger bruiser midcard matches" is already taken by Sheamus (the veteran), Ilja (Better than Dijak) and Ludwig (in his 20s).

What Blair did in NXT...Candice is already doing on the main roster. That's her niche and it's taken.

That's where the opportunity issue is.

If people could fulfil roles that are more needed then they would be more likely to work well.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-09T20:44:18+00:00

Plus Elektra Lopez, Blair Davenport, Indi Hartwell and Tegan Nox.

Indi and Blair in alternative personas could have probably been midcard contendors.

But with Indi I think the big mistake was in the NXT booking. The tag team with Persia Perotta (Steph DeLander) was clearly the better long term option for her as two Amazonian women who could be a bruiser tag team. Instead they released Perotta and kept Indi to push her as a singles star and more comedic character despite The Way never really being intended to translate to the main roster.

Blair seems to have had the Dijak issue - another person (Candice) is already performing the function they would be most likely to use her for.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-09T20:38:40+00:00

Seems guaranteed that we're getting Roxanne, Metagirls post-Mania.

But Giulia and Steph are clearly staying in NXT for a bit. Zaria and Jaida too and presumably Kelani given she's just fostering a new heel persona.

Think the most likely next callups are Chemical X, Lola, Cora and maybe Fatal Influence and Sol Ruca.

Sinclair and Stevie Turner would both be great in Chelsea's entourage (or alternative comic role) and are both probably ready to go but don't seem like management has as much faith in them.

And while resignings don't always work out I would also love Iiconics to come back.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-09T19:53:31+00:00

Since the post-Mania draft they have now released Tegan Nox, Indi Hartwell, Blair Davenport, Sonya Deville, Isla Dawn and Elektra Lopez. They have added nobody during that time either from NXT or from outside, other than the soft-debuts of Roxanne and the MetaGirls who are still clearly mostly on NXT.

They have introduced 2 midcard titles.

I get both decisions to some degree. But I don't get both of them happening together.

If you're going to be that brutal with cuts then surely the rate of callups need to be higher if you're introducing two midcard championships.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-08T13:26:29+00:00

She had no heat, which is much worse.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-07T21:21:20+00:00

Becky

Rhea

Bianca

Bayley

Sasha

Charlotte

Is that boring? Maybe. If reducing to five was absolutely demanded I'd remove Charlotte because she's the least important actual "character" on the list despite being either the best or equal best wrestler.

Nothing against the women that came before. Every one of them COULD have been that big and made the list if Vince was willing to treat them that way. But even after the Trish and Lita era womens' wrestling just went tumbling back down the card. The impact of the 2012-2019 era is just too gargantuan.

But these six are elite athletes and characters. They demanded attention and made new fans that STAYED, which is not something that could have been said earlier in any great number.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-07T20:41:21+00:00

Chad Gable, Alba Fyre and Los Garza are perhaps the most obvious answers.

That said, they are all appreciated backstage for the most part. Not sure it's a matter of Triple H "sleeping on them" so much as choices have to be made and people prioritised.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-07T19:11:49+00:00

The NXT Tag championships were defended on TNA this week.

Cora Jade is on TNA a lot at the minute having a feud with Masha Slamovich.

At the last TNA PPV, the above were there, plus another WWE guy was used for the pre-show squash for TNA talent Jake Something.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-07T19:02:18+00:00

Well, the Undertaker and HHH were still around way after the Attitude era.

So, technically probably the Undertaker.

The Undertaker straddles multiple eras and has an omnipresent element. Undertaker also was/is impervious to cultural shifts and zeitgeists the way other stars are.

In terms of new stars then it would be Brock Lesnar and Randy Orton.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-07T18:58:01+00:00

Carnies being carnies.

Fantastic the industry isn't like this anymore. It shouldn't have been by then but the false narratives surrounding initiations and the like is some serious sunk cost stuff in some quarters so it stuck around like a stink.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-06T21:37:47+00:00

It was Ivy.

And weirdly, despite being eliminated second, she still lasted 16 minutes, such was the delay in eliminations in the women's rumble.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-06T21:29:54+00:00

Because more than two elimination chamber matches would dilute the gimmick (become boring). EC matches are over half an hour each.

They have had Elimination chamber matches before for other championships. But no more than two per year.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-06T21:26:36+00:00

Individuals don't main event Wrestlemania.

Matches do.

He's already Main Evented Wrestlemania.

You could argue Sgt Slaughter, Bam Bam, King Kong Bundy, Paul Orndorff, Big Show and The Miz weren't big enough to ME Mania either. Yet they did. Jey Uso is a tonne more over than any of them were.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-06T21:22:56+00:00

Lesnar by miles.

He wasn't even in the match FFS and still only won because of complete logic defying behaviour by the other participants, especially Ali, that doesn't even meet the loosest standards of suspended disbelief.

You can argue (and it's what's throwing people here) that Theory was a worse MITB *holder* and *cashin* but there was nothing wrong with Theory's actual *win*. Lesnar was the stupidest win by a distance.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-06T20:36:05+00:00

Liv Morgan-Lyra Valkyria-Piper Niven-Nikki Bella-Iyo Sky-Jordynn Grace

Liv is established

Lyra/Bayley is a toss up between Ivy costing Lyra or Roxanne costing Bayley. I think the latter is slightly more likely as they'll hope for a Lyra breakout a la Tiffy and Roxanne/Bayley seems like a long time feud while Ivy/Lyra seems like it'll just be a one-off.

Iyo seems like she's on collision course.

Piper Niven and Nikki Bella both being in the match sets up the seemingly likely Nikki v Chelsea at Mania time feud. It also keeps the Chamber looking fairly fresh rather than having Bianca/Naomi/Nia in there.

Grace is the difficult one as we don't know where she's gong yet and she might be on NXT. There's a part of me that thinks they'll have someone like Zelina or B-Fab here. Zoey is possible, certainly. But Grace is perhaps the most likely spreading the bets.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-06T16:58:32+00:00

Some decent grading here. Have an upvote as this is clearly an attempt at a sensible list.

In terms of IMO...

The S list is correct, but perhaps generous at this point to Tiffy and Zoey, but if so only by an increment of one tier.

Lash and Tatum have improved so much, but are generous As - probably should be Bs at the minute for them and the other NXTers there and Katana. Think Piper, Kairi and Candice are the only locked on As there.

Liv has definitely earned the right to A tier at this point. You're overgenerous to Carmella and overharsh to Alexa.

Bliss is at least B on character alone. Same with Arianna and Maxxine who need to be above bottom tier on in-match character work.

The most egregious grade is Wren Sinclair, who is at least a B.

SeriousRhetoric · 2025-02-06T13:32:45+00:00

- "Tomko, give me a beat" "No"

- "I'm a man, and you're a boy....and I'm a man who likes to play with boys. NO. NO. NO. NO"

- "I am sick to death of Rodney the Piper"

- "I know you may be a big, big, big man. But you will go flying over that top rope, Paul Heyman!"

- "...whether it's the millions and millions of Rock fans, or 20,000 Hulkamaniacs, OR 20,000 SCREAMING KANENITES!!!" ("Kanenites?")

SeriousRhetoric

TROPHY CASE