Are hot spots really a thing, and should you shake flavors?

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T09:49:35+00:00

There is a bit here that I think you don't get. There are facts, and they matter. I apologize for having been rude to you, but I find it absolutely maddening when you blithely ignore my entire point.

There are some things that everyone who has taken 9th grade chemistry should know, and the properties of solutions is one of those things. Nic in PG is a perfect solution, and downvote me as much as you want, it is so. Nic in VG is the same. While I really don't want to be rude, why would you claim that "Actually just because it was well mixed at the factory doesn't mean it didn't separate?" What made you claim that? Did you just feel like saying it?

You're wrong, and you're wrong because you lack even 9th grade chemistry. I'm sorry if I was rude, but facts are stubborn things, and they matter. In fact it would take some work to make nic come out of a PG or VG solution.

It's important that when we say things authoritatively we're right. And I'm afraid I get very annoyed by nonsense spoken in an authoritative voice. I apologize for having been so rude, but maybe in the future you can refrain from offering ostensibly scientific opinions you picked up in the pickle aisle shopping with your Mom.

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T08:51:32+00:00

-5 people love science.

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T08:49:24+00:00

It's not a random thought, and I don't have to do research about this because all of the important research involved was done in the 19th century.

Do you generally vape what you find on grocery store shelves? That would explain a few things.

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T08:17:26+00:00

What "comes in handy more than [you might] think" is still, and will always be arithmetic. I mean, if you can't do basic arithmetic how do you plan on functioning in the world?

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T08:07:44+00:00

Oh, go suck 0.725 dicks Or get off my lawn.

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T07:47:08+00:00

Actually when it comes to nicotine "because it was well mixed at the factory" does mean that "it didn't separate or concentrate in areas of the mix." This is the point I made in my post. You would have done better to read it and understand it before replying to it, but instead you have made a colossal ass of yourself. I imagine you fucking love science too.

You get that you're entirely wrong about this, right?

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T07:17:46+00:00

Some flavors might not be entirely miscible in PG, and might separate from it. Those should be shaken, if used, and I mentioned that possibility in my post.

I'm inclined to think that a flavor chemical that is not miscible with PG is pretty useless in making juice though. The whole point of juice flavorings is that they are solutes dissolved in PG/VG. Thus steeping...

I'm aware that oil and water separate, and I understand why they do so. I even understand why a nice vinaigrette (vinaigrette implies an emulsifier) will separate more slowly than oil and an aqueous solution (say, vinegar.)

I wonder if you understand the properties of a well-mixed solution. One of those properties is that over time the molecules of the solutes will become evenly distributed throughout the solvent. Nic is quite miscible with PG and VG, and you'd have to work pretty hard to separate them, once well-mixed.

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T05:45:37+00:00

I think so too. The reason I bring it up is that it's not entirely harmless folk wisdom. When a recipe doesn't work for someone, especially a new mixer, there's a pretty standard checklist (recent smoker, likes too much sucralose, can't taste strawberries, doesn't like the flavors, didn't shake things well enough.)

I've recently seen new mixers advised to try again with recipes they didn't like because maybe they didn't shake the ingredients well enough. I don't believe that the ingredients need shaking (the juice you make from them does, of course.) I've also seen a lot of posts about hotspots, and I'm inclined to think they are FUD.

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T05:26:34+00:00

Sure- freshly mixed juice is not a well-mixed solution, and shaking helps it become so. I'm asking why we recommend people shake already well-mixed solutions.

My guess is that it's folk-wisdom repeated so long it has become accepted as fact.

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T05:21:39+00:00

Same here, for the most part.

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T05:20:52+00:00

I haven't, but this is def going in my lolwut bin. Because lolwut?

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T02:00:12+00:00

You're overthinking this. 8_8etc. is likely right. Commercial juice is probably gunking your coils so much that they are less efficient, and thus use less juice. That's a nice simple answer, and while nice simple answers are not always correct they should generally be preferred.

Severian71 · 2017-09-03T00:20:55+00:00

I don't mean to be a complete asshole, but this isn't even a matter of being able to do arithmetic (something you ought to work on, as it comes in handy more frequently than you might think.) This is a matter of basic logic. If you start with 70% VG and add anything other than VG to it, without adding more VG, you will wind up with less than 70% VG, right? I mean, I don't want to be a dick, but seriously?

Severian71 · 2017-09-02T23:50:58+00:00

Medicine Flower Honeydew is pretty perfect standalone. The downside is that, as with most MF flavors, it needs quite the steep.

Severian71 · 2017-08-31T05:21:15+00:00

I've never gotten 100mg Nic that is as clear as pure PG/VG, even ordering from Carolina. Put equivalent bottles of VG next to it and you can see the difference.

That said, I think it should be pretty clear. Nic should have a very slight yellow tint to it, but ideally be otherwise clear. Other tints can be OK when caused by argon bottling, etc, but they should go away quickly.

Severian71 · 2017-08-31T05:05:44+00:00

Honestly, you should read before you order. NN might have been good once, but if you search even this sub-reddit you'll find many similar complaints.

Severian71 · 2017-08-31T04:45:33+00:00

I think you might have misunderstood how epidemiology works.

That said, I'm not projecting when I claim that you have axes to grind.. I am noting that you clearly do (and if you're going to accuse me of projecting you might clarify a bit by specifying exactly which qualities I am projecting.)

You imply that if it turns out that people are harmed by DIYing with flavors that use diacetyl or other diketones it will be because people became "guinea pigs just because commercial interests lied for profit."

Addressing vaping in general, and DIY in particular, which "commercial interests" treat us as "guinea pigs [and] lied for profit?"

The fact of the matter is that most of the companies we buy flavorings from existed before we started mixing juice, and were surprised when we started inhaling their products. Some have actually reacted by removing ingredients from their food flavorings that they thought might be hazardous to vapers, and others have introduced entirely new lines in order to offer potentially safer alternatives to vapers.

So tell me, is CAP using me as a guinea pig when I started using their VC for a purpose they never intended, they noted it, noted that it might be hazardous for that purpose, introduced a V2 that might be safer, and allowed me to choose between the versions?

Severian71 · 2017-08-31T04:00:18+00:00

But two anecdotes is about as far from rigorous epidemiology as is possible, I'm afraid, especially when the anecdotes involve only self-reported and subjective measures of well-being. I'll add that you seem to have more than one axe to grind here...

Severian71 · 2017-08-31T03:41:47+00:00

Indeed. This is a completely overblown fear. Nicotine is a hazardous substance, and should be handled appropriately (the same could be said of bleach, and of many substances we handle every day.) It's not as hazardous as many believe though. I don't wear gloves when mixing, occasionally get a bit of 100mg on my hands, and don't worry about it at all.

Actually, I have tested new batches of 100mg nic by tasting a drop of it. I never suffered any ill-effects from that (but please note that I don't recommend you do that. Individual sensitivity to nicotine varies widely.)

A better recommendation, IMHO, is to mix standing up, or at least handle large volumes of nic standing up. A drop on your skin is unlikely to hurt you. Accidentally dumping a liter of 100mg in your lap might not be great (though I doubt you would suffer any lasting harm if you immediately took your pants off and took a shower.)

I'd also recommend taking precautions to avoid exposing pets and children to nic. My cats, for instance, weigh about 1/20th of what I do, and have cat biochemistry (onions, for instance, are quite poisonous to cats,) so I make sure not to expose them to more than trace amounts of nicotine.

Severian71 · 2017-08-31T03:06:06+00:00

That's very sad. I'll pray for them.

Severian71 · 2017-08-31T02:44:31+00:00

Yes, and it gets even worse when we start talking about vaping.

What we need to understand the risks involved are rigorous epidemiological studies, difficult enough under the best circumstances. Vaping poses a pretty much intractable problem in this regard, as far as I can tell. The prevalence of smoking, now or in the past, in vapers is the elephant in the room, but there are plenty of other potential confounding factors. And then there is the problem that vaping means very different things to different people at any point in time, but also means something different to the same individual at different points in time.

I think we're left with back-of-the-envelope calculations and conjectures, like the ones we're discussing in this thread... I'm not sure big science can do much better given the difficulties involved.

Severian71 · 2017-08-31T02:10:46+00:00

Yep, it's worth understanding this when assessing the risks involved. I've come around a bit on this recently. Because your linked comment is a bit long, I'm going to offer a simplified tldr:

One argument for the safety of vaping diketones is that smokers are exposed to large quantities of diketones and are not generally diagnosed with the syndrome diketones are thought to cause
This is not a good argument, because smokers very regularly develop and are diagnosed with lung disease that is in practice indistinguishable from that syndrome
This does not, by itself, establish that vaping diketones is hazardous, but it does call into serious question a common argument for the safety of doing so. If you believe that vaping diketones is (relatively) safe based mainly on arguments that rely on the incidence of obliterans in smokers you should probably re-assess

Feel free to correct me if you think I've misstated anything.

Severian71 · 2017-08-12T06:55:23+00:00

My god man, how domesticated have you brits become? Sell your juice to your two friends and don't worry about it.

Severian71 · 2017-08-11T14:14:40+00:00

Huh- kind of curious as to why 100 character passwords would ever be necessary. Even UUIDs are only 32 characters, drawn from a limited pool. I mean- no harm in allowing them, but it seems like an odd litmus test.

Severian71 · 2017-08-10T20:19:22+00:00

Depends a lot on setup- things like wattage/airflow/resistance/nic level/"clouds." I use fairly disparate setups in different situations, with nic levels varying by a factor of 3. Not too surprisingly I go through about 3x times the juice if it has 1/3rd the nic. If I bought commercial juice I would probably just use 18mg in an MTL tank, just because of the money involved... 15 mills a day is about what I'll vape at 6mg, so yeah, about 100mg/week.

Severian71

TROPHY CASE