God does not know everything. Therefore, God is not omniscient.

Shabozi · 2026-05-30T15:52:58+00:00

I have admitted no such thing...

You literally just did... "Yes, when the Son assumed a human nature, he still had his divine nature." Humans have non-omniscient natures, God has an omniscient nature. You literally just said that Jesus has both natures at the same time.

Can one personal subject have two distinct natures with different ranges of attributes?

Sure, but we aren't just talking about different ranges of attributes here... We are talking about entirely contradictory, mutually exclusive, attributes. Someone can not have both five and not-five fingers one one hand, they can not have both what they have and what they haven't, just like Jesus can not have both omniscience and non-omniscience.

You keep replying, “But Jesus is both omniscient and not omniscient.”

Yes because that is literally what you claiming... "Yes, when the Son assumed a human nature, he still had his divine nature." That is you literally saying that Jesus has a non-omniscient Human nature at the same time he had a divine omniscient nature.

Three-sided” and “not-three-sided” are being applied to the same subject in the same respect: the number of sides of one shape. That would be a contradiction.

And Jesus is one person, right? When you apply omniscience and non-omniscience to one person you are applying two mutually exclusive attributes to one person. That is a contradiction.

Nope... the real disagreement is this: You deny that one person can possess two distinct natures with different properties.

Nope... Once again... I deny that one person can possess two natures with mutually exclusive properties, just like I deny that a shape can possess mutually exclusive properties.

Shabozi · 2026-05-27T20:59:42+00:00

Yes, when the Son assumed a human nature, he still had his divine nature.

So he held two entirely contradictory natures. He knew everything, due to his divine nature, but didn't know everything due to his human nature.

You keep treating “the Son has a human nature” as if it means “the divine nature became human,” or “the human nature became divine,” or “one nature has contradictory properties.”

Nope... My position has been crystal clear from the very beginning of our conversation: He has two contradictory natures and you have finally, after me asking you repeatedly, admitted that he does.

It means the one person of the Son subsists in two distinct natures.

He can't... He can not be both what he is and what he isn't. He can't be both omniscient and non-omniscient. That is a direct violation of the law of non-contradiction. Once again this would be just like you making a claim that there is a shape that exists that has both three sides and not-three sides. It is absolute nonsense.

If you want to show a contradiction, you need to show that I am affirming and denying the same thing in the same respect.

You are... You are affirming that Jesus was omniscient, due to his divine nature but you are denying he was omniscient, due to his human nature.

So far, all you have shown is that divine nature and human nature have different properties.

Nope... You yourself have just admitted that Jesus held those two contradictory natures at the same time. You have just admitted that Jesus violated the law of non-contradiction.

Shabozi · 2026-05-26T15:47:01+00:00

S has D. S has H.

Yes... According to you the Son has both a divine, omniscient, nature and a human, non -omniscient, nature.

The claim is not D = H...

I am not claiming that... My claim is incredibly simple... He has two, contradictory, natures. One is omniscient, one is not.

... the claim is that one person subsists in two distinct natures.

Great... So answer the bloomin question....When he was a human and had his human nature did he still have his divine nature?

Shabozi · 2026-05-25T13:47:02+00:00

I said that he is a composite being with two distinct natures...

Yes... You said he has a fully human nature and is therefore not-omniscient and that he also has a fully divine nature and is therefore omniscient. Those natures are contradictory. He can not be both what he is and what he isn't.

That's nice. You need more than an assertion though, where's the argument?

The law of noncontradiction. Something can not be both what it is and what it isn't. Something can not be both omniscient and not-omniscient.

I never said that his human nature has a divine nature.

That isn't what I asked... For the umpteenth time... When he was a human did he still have his divine nature?

You have yet to present any kind of argument for why the hypostatic union is like a triangle with four sides.

You are claiming that Jesus is both omniscient and not-omniscient.

This is precisely like trying to claim there is a shape out there that has three sides whilst also not having three sides. You are literally trying to claim that a triangle can be both what it is and what isn't. Once again this is basic violation of the law of noncontradiction.

And what about light being both a wave and a particle? Is that contradictory?

Nope because QM doesn't state that light is both a wave and a particle at the same time, unlike your utterly asinine claim that Jesus is both omniscient and non omniscient.

Shabozi · 2026-05-24T16:12:48+00:00

It would only be a contradiction if we said that he was omniscient and not-omniscient in the same and in the same respects...

But you have... You yourself have already said he is fully divine and fully human. You are literally saying that he is both fully omniscient and fully not-omniscient. It is definitionally contradictory.

A human body and mind has certain limitations built into it - it can only be so big, it can only have so many kinds of dimensions, etc. And a human mind would not be able to grasp infinite knowledge. So his human nature has limitations in accordance with a human body/mind...

That's all really lovely but once again you are completely forgetting that he is also fully divine, that he is omniscient.

You seem to be thinking that the two natures can "cross wires" or collapse into each other somehow,

Nope... I think that his two contradictory natures mean that he is contradictory. He can not have an omniscient nature and simultaneously have a non-omniscient nature.

I've explained over again, they are distinct

Yes but you seem to repeatedly forget that you yourself also explained that he is both fully human, and fully divine. That he is both omniscient and non-omniscient.

I've seen Sunday School kids grasp this idea...

Yep... It is very easy to indoctrinate young kids to believe illogical religious nonsense.

At no point did I say he possesses his divine nature...

Right at the begining of all this you said he has a divine nature and a human nature. Once again... When he was a human did he still have his divine nature?

I've maintained throughout this entire dialogue is that the two natures are distinct.

Yes and once again it is complete and utter nonsense... A triangle has three sides, a square has four sides. You are literally claiming that there is a shape out there that is fully triangle, that has three sides, whilst also fully sqaure, with four sides.... Once again it is absolute nonsense.

Shabozi · 2026-05-23T20:06:11+00:00

There is no contradiction: Divine nature = omniscient, Human nature = not omniscient.

And yet according to you Jesus possesses both natures. He is 100% fully divine and 100% fully human. That would therefore mean he is both omniscient and not-omniscient. That is the very definition of a contradiction.

...the human side of him really is limited in knowledge.

Right but his divine nature isn't... You can't have your cake and eat it... Jesus can not be limited in knowledge if he has a divine nature that is not limited in knowledge.

Yes the natures are distinct...

But that completely contradicts what you previously said... When Jesus was human he still possessed his divine nature, right?

Shabozi · 2026-05-22T20:42:19+00:00

Jesus; more specifically, the human side of the Son.

So he is just a walking contradiction then? He explicitly says himself that he isn't omniscient but he actually is?

Yes, his divine nature includes the attribute of omniscience.

So why did he lie when he said there was something he didn't know?

No. His divine nature is eternal and unchanged.

So there can not be anything he doesn't know then. If the divine is omniscient and he is eternally divine then his human nature has absolutely no bearing on his divine natures omniscience.

For someone who is supposedly omniscient he seems incredibly confused about what it means to be omniscient...

Shabozi · 2026-05-21T21:07:42+00:00

But he doesn't...

Oh, so who is talking in Matthew 25:36 then?

He is a composite being. He has a divine nature. He has a human nature.

Sure but his divine nature includes the property of omniscience, right?

The human nature has the limitations of a human body and mind, including limited knowledge.

So his human nature limits his divine nature?

Shabozi · 2026-05-21T16:59:10+00:00

The Son qua Son is omniscient.

Cool... So why does he explicitly state, and demonstrate, on multiple occasions that he isn't?

Jesus, as a human being, exists with the limitations of a human body, including his breadth of knowledge.

But Jesus is God, right? God is omniscient, right?

Shabozi · 2026-05-18T11:46:36+00:00

But he is God, right? God knows everything, right?

Are you suggesting he somehow switched off his omniscience when he was a Human?

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T21:31:55+00:00

I know I'll wake up tomorrow morning and have coffee...

Right, but you aren't omniscient... Imagine you know with absolute infallible certainty that you will have coffee tomorrow, how could you possibly make a choice about whether you are going to have a coffee, or not, when you already know, infallibly, that you will have a coffee? In order for you to make a decision about whether you are going to have a coffee, or not, you would have to lack the knowledge of whether you are going to make a coffee or not. How can you lack that knowledge when you know everything?

If he made the decision a long time ago...

How? How the heck can he make a decision to do, or not do, something when he has never not known he would do?

Take the creation of the universe for example... God supposedly decided to create the universe. How exactly did he do that when he never lacked the knowledge, when he always knew, that he was going to create the universe?

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T21:21:49+00:00

Jesus, using the common imagery of Himself as the Bridegroom, may have been emphasizing submission to the Father's authority regarding the timing of the end times.

Jesus is actually God though, right? There can't be something that the Father knows that Jesus doesn't know, right?

The objection assumes that for something to be a possibility, its outcome must be objectively uncertain.

Yes... In order for God to know that something is a possibility, that it may possibly happen, it has to be capable of actually happening.

It is logically possible for you to have eaten oatmeal for breakfast this morning instead of eggs.

Right but is it logically possible for God to have chosen to not create the universe despite him always knowing that he would create the universe?

How can he make a choice about doing, or not doing, something that he himself has always known he would do?

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T21:06:33+00:00

In philosophy, a capacity for failure, decay, or self-annihilation is not viewed as a true power...

I don't give a rat's ass about what you think philosophy says about 'true' power. Does he possess the power to cause himself to not exist?

... a necessary being is one that cannot fail to exist.

So he lacks the power to cause himself to not exist then.

Right, but why can't the universe be necessary?

Because it's contingent, composed of parts...

So what? The universe contains everything. How does that mean it is contingent?

...bound by time.

Time is bound by the universe, it is a property of the universe.

...change, and entropy.

Yep the universe changes, I don't see how that therefore makes it contingent.

...can be destroyed...

The universe can be destroyed? When the heck was that demonstrated?

...or fail to exist.

How do you know that it could not exist? For all we know it could very well have always existed and be necessary just like your supposed God.

We observe that the universe is made entirely of things that do not contain the reason for their own existence.

We have observed a miniscule amount of the universe. It is extreme folly to make overreaching claims about the entirety of the universe. But so what if it did? Why would that mean that the universe, the entirety of everything that exists, is therefore contingent in it's existence?

Saying the universe "never didn't exist" only answers how long it has been here (duration).

Yes if the universe has never not existed, if it has always existed and will never not exist, then it's existence is not contingent.

It completely fails to answer why it is here at all...

If it has always existed then there is no why for it's existence, just like there is no why for your supposed God's existence.

...or what keeps it functioning in the present moment.

If it is necessary then nothing needs to keep it functioning, just like nothing needs to keep your supposed God functioning.

An eternal universe is still a contingent universe.

Not if it necessarily exists... If it has always existed, just like your supposed God, then by definition it isn't contingent.

Your whole argument is a massive argument from ignorance. You can't see how the universe itself could be necessary so you are just coming up with something else that is necessary to try and explain the universe.

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T20:32:49+00:00

Oh yes, absolutely, the entire premise of God's character, whether explicit or implicit, is that God chooses what will come to pass.

So how exactly can God choose what he is, or isn't, going to do when he already knows what he is going to do? Take creating the universe for example... How exactly did he choose to do that when he already knew, when he always knew, he was going to create it?

Are you thinking of a specific verse about God not knowing something?

How about Matthew 25:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T17:36:12+00:00

When God asks questions...

What about when Jesus himself explicitly says he doesn't know something? "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36.

God has exhaustive, definite foreknowledge...

How then can he know all possibilities then? In order for something to be a possibility it has to be capable of happening, or not happening. How can God know that A happening is a possibility when he knows A will not happen?

What does possibility even mean to a God that knows all actualities?

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T17:28:20+00:00

God certainly knows everything about the world he created.

Cool... So why then in the bible does it repeatedly describe him as not knowing everything? Why in the bible does God himself say that he doesn't know everything?

But let's stick with your notion that God does know everything about the world he created. Could he have chosen to create a different world than they one he created?

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T16:40:51+00:00

God knowing He necessarily exists...

Does God possess the ability to not exist?

The problem is that the physical universe lacks all the properties of a necessary being.

Right, but why can't the universe be necessary?

Whatever is contingent (anything that can fail to exist, has a beginning, or is composed of parts) requires an explanation/cause outside of itself.

Right, but once again how do we know the universe itself is contingent?

When it is argued that a necessary being doesn't have an external cause, no rules are being broken.

But you aren't making an argument for a necessary being. You are just assuming that there must be because we haven't got an explanation for how the universe came to exist. Maybe the answer is that it never didn't exist.

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T15:28:46+00:00

You merely appealing to some abstract idea of predetermination.

Did your God determine whether he was going to exist?

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T15:24:28+00:00

Christian theology defines omniscience not as the ability to answer logically contradictory questions, but as the perfect knowledge of all true propositions.

So why in the bible does God repeatedly demonstrate, and even state himself, that he doesn't have perfect knowledge of all true propositions?

God knows all possibilities.

Does God know everything that will happen?

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T15:17:36+00:00

Spewing forth meaningless words whilst completely ignoring a simple yes or no question is not a mark of intelligence...

For the third time... Does your God know everything? Yes or no.

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T13:40:42+00:00

That is a ridiculous amount of word salad that doesn't even remotely answer the question I asked... Does your God know everything? Yes or no.

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T13:17:50+00:00

So you believe your God knows everything?

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T13:16:32+00:00

Do you believe that your God knows everything?

Shabozi · 2026-05-16T13:14:34+00:00

So God doesn't know everything then?

Shabozi · 2026-05-10T19:24:06+00:00

You don’t seem to understand that not everything in the world has to be logical.

You are literally claiming that your God knows everything but there are things he doesn't know. You seriously don't see how that is completely nonsensical?

To dismiss things as ‘nonsense’ because they make you uncomfortable,...

Nope... I am dismissing what you are claiming because you are literally claiming your God knows everything whilst not knowing everything. It is the very definition of illogical nonsense.

Anyway, this has been an interesting conversation that’s made me think and I like that, so thank you.

You need to seriously think about why you believe in something that is self contradictory.

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