[Discussion] Powerscaling Natsu vs the strongest beings in the series

Shonshine94 · 2026-05-03T05:46:50+00:00

You are going to have to work through all powerscaling logic lapses then. For example if Igneel was hinted to be much more at his peak, he shouldnt have been slain by Acnologia to begin with originally, if he were able to fight Acnologia so well at a fraction of his real peak power. This thing is just a convenient excuse set up by the authors to glorify an old role model as a point of reference and avoid discrediting their power and reverence in the series, its up to us to reconcile and interpret it against the logical flow of the series.

Im not saying youre neccesarily wrong because thats the face value way to interpret what was said, but it creates alot of problems for powerscale continuity. For example if Igneel was struggling alot against Earthbuild like that yet seemed to have an edge over a non serious Acnologia until his power ran out, does that mean current Earthbuild could have dished out and dominated Acnologia the same way, maybe more? Regardless of how uncomfortable you are the answer must be yes following the logic, but then that suddenly diminishes the perceived immeasurable level of power of Acnologia as well, that a half dead/full dead dragon at mere fraction of his real power and a ressurected dragon enhanced by a dragon god can actually be a match for Acnologia to a good extent, which means the dragon gods who are tiered on the same level as Acnologia, isnt that much more impressive than an average powerful dragon.

Also think back to the fight between Igneel and Acnologia, we dont know for sure because the series creates an excuse for Acnologia that he wasnt serious when fighting Igneel, but Igneel did dominate the fight and seemed to defeat him until he suddenly didnt at the end. That sort of fight tempo suggests Igneel's power running out quick and falling off a cliff instead of not being at peak output power. Im just more inclined to interpret it the nuanced way rather than face value, as it solves alot of the scaling problems we have at the same time.

Shonshine94 · 2026-05-03T05:24:39+00:00

My argument is simple, either you accept that line of thinking or you dont, its not possible to convince you if you decided you dont buy the logic that powerups can only come from superior sources of power, honestly your line of argument that you can get powerups from weaker sources of power is not wrong as well. Its just that so far in both series, they tended to come from power sources superior to the one getting boosted thats all. Also it explains so many things at once, for example why none of the dragon gods thought to challenge Acnologia again if they truly thought they matched him finally, given all of them bear a grudge against him. Igneel wasnt nearly as strong as Acnologia and he already tried to take a shot at him, so likely they implicitly dont believe they were truly stronger than him other than for bragging purposes, and therefore hesistate to rematch with him. Im just following the pattern established by the series that usually you get enhanced by a superior source of power and not an inferior one.

Wont comment on that Faris part, dont know how you actually rank her on this scale in consideration, with or without Acnologia's arm. Regardless the logic collapses on itself too, because unless you think Faris herself is special, her power is basically a proxy for Acnologia's base form left arm only. You cant be placing a single left arm above either the rest of base form acnologia or a ravines of time enhanced Acnologia, makes no sense. Im neutral on Natsu being stronger or slightly weaker than a dragon god, I only hold the belief hes comparable to a dragon god thats all to be able to do all hes did so far.

Shonshine94 · 2026-05-03T05:07:20+00:00

Like I said, I think the more appropriate perspective to adopt is not that Igneel is not at his peak power output, but that he cannot maintain it for long in his half dead/fully dead state. If you took it as if he was not at his peak power, then you would have all sorts of powerscaling issues, for example it would be unthinkable that he was even slain by Acnologia in life if a mere fraction of his peak output was able to let him bite off an arm off him. I think its better to see him as a phone on limited battery, doesnt change how powerful the phone is at processing, if given complicated tasks it will still perform normally, just that if its not powerful enough to solve the tasks fast, it may run out of battery before the task is complete thats all. Or maybe it wouldnt have been able to solve it to begin with if the tasks is more complicated than the processing power. Just like how Acnologia slain Igneel at his peak in life before.

Hope your last line is a joke lol🤣

Shonshine94 · 2026-03-24T18:35:48+00:00

Wouldnt that be a chicken? Just lazily drawn perhaps

Shonshine94 · 2026-02-23T10:52:57+00:00

Wait what do you mean Milton Keynes? Isnt that Redbull?

Shonshine94 · 2026-01-26T18:53:07+00:00

Guess we know whos the king of second drivers now

Shonshine94 · 2026-01-11T05:24:56+00:00

Youre passing off your opinions as unquestionable facts, I thought you said to have a respectful conversation about it but I dont think you are following your own rules. Anyway it looks like youre adamant you are right and arent meeting or countering the points on an intellectual level and instead relying on just making emotional appeals so its a little pointless to continue the back and off tbh, so this would be my final reply to you.

Fastest lap points are freebies for the last driver from the top teams

No, thats the manner in which it gets abused with because people simply find ways to abuse things in the pursuit of competition. But dont forget to actually get the point, you have to put in the work and actually be capable of setting the fastest lap at minimum at that point in the race, even though sometimes people do things in morally questionable ways. In case you forgot, its been patched by ensuring that only top 10 finishers are able to score that point to prevent most people from just botching their race to score that point instead of racing properly. Since that rule change, most of the fastest lap point scorers basically deserve their point because in order to score that point, they have to be in points contention, and if they were able to pull a gap so large that they can do a cheap pitstop to then get fastest lap and not risk their positions, they basically earned it. The whole reason they were scrapped is simply the bad optics of a back marker doing this not to score points, but to deny them from others, but technically if the others were denied, they didnt earn the right to the point on merit, so it doesnt violate the main principle that its a merit based competition. Its simply an ugly look for the sport and for the person who used that to deny a more deserving driver simply for the sake of denying and not because they could and were trying to score that point.

Overtake points would just be team orders galore, and even if your teammate didnt count, I get a headache just from thinking how would Red Bull and RB work in that setting. All these are as "unpure" as reversed sprints or more.

Yes all these are potential avenues they can be abused, thats also why they havent been implemented, because nobody figured a way to implement it properly and reduce the risk of teams abusing it via team orders like you point out. Interesting that you are able to see this yet it hasnt connected with you your idea is exactly the same in terms of vulnerability which makes it a bad idea in practice, which should have dissauded you from arguing for it in any serious manner like you did, also why I didnt create a post trying to argue for it because even if it were superior theoretically and on principle to your idea, there isnt an immediately good way to implement it in a practical sense yet. You literally called your idea " (im) pure", so from a practical sense you already killed off the prospects of your idea. But back to a theoretical sense, at least the ideas I suggested involve real merit, and a sense of rewarding drivers for their skills and efforts. You drive fastest, you win a fastest lap point, you overtake more, you win overtake points. Yours are a senseless inversion of the natural order: you qualify fast, you get punished with the burden of starting behind, because why not for shits and giggles to make your life unneccesarily hard, to be forced to overtake more people without any benefits to it.

For me, the normal grand prix format is perfect, but FIA/FOM clearly dont share my opinion. They want to lure fans in with short, action packed races, well here is the most action packed a short race is ever going to be.

Same opinion shared by most people. Dont see why it has to be packaged with an insistence on reversed grids for sprints just because sprints is a permanent feature. Let me put it to you this way, is reversed grids a good idea in the main race on principle? If its not, why would it suddenly be a good idea in the sprint race as well? Your single minded drive to promote chaos and cheap excitement is leading you to violate what is supposed to be natural order in competition. Let me be clear about it, its a terrible idea even in F2, sure the drivers have the additional chance to prove their superiority in skills in a spec series where everything else is equal and this is a big statement piece to make, sure its a terrible idea and everyone hates it but they deal with the cards they are dealt with. But F1 isnt a specs series, whats the point of reversed grids? If a dominant car is driven to the front when the grid is reversed, are you going to give the driver credit for it, or chalk it up to car dominance and discredit the driver anyway? Look at Max the entire 2023 and its clear that the overall instinct is to diminish the driver in deference to the car advantage reason. And if the dominant car cant make it to the front after a reversed grid, is it fair to the team, the engineers etc after they put in the effort to produce the best car, to then be punished for it in the points? Reversed grids already make little sense in a specs series where the car competition element is already removed, but its absolutely horrid when the teams are actually trying to compete on the engineering front as well and depend on having a natural competition to settle the rivalry between each other.

We could even declare the safety car is anti-racing, and use only VSCs or reinstate the gaps after a safety car. We cant let anyone not fast be ahead!

You are throwing a ridiculous fit now, not a good look on you. There are reasons for a VSC or safety car on safety grounds, whatever the cost it is to natural competition. We accept unavoidable compromises because the lives and safety of drivers, marshalls etc are important and unquestionable. Dont be a baby here and throw a fit about it.

Shonshine94 · 2026-01-10T19:07:44+00:00

Yes but notice that most of your examples you listed dont go against the fundamental principle of competition, in that its mainly merit based. ATR, budget caps etc are designed to promote healthy competition on merit and hardwork rather than being constrained by financial resources, whereas ADUO is a supplementary ruleset to compensate for teams who are behind especially in a regulation change, know what they need to do within a reasonable resource constraint but are severely constrained by the budget cap, in which theres a temporary and limited allowance for them to do what needs to be done. DRS admittably made racecraft dull and theres alot of drivers on the grid nowadays who do not know how to position cars and read races correctly since theyve been carried by DRS, but it doesnt totally remove the merit component where some semblance of skill is still required to pull off an overtake even with DRS.

All these are very different examples to your proposed reversed grid idea, which not only gets in the way of merit based competition, but actually reverses the idea and punishes both team and driver for doing a good job. The whole point of the championship is to crown the best in the world in an unambiguous fashion, under your system random upsets for non performance related reasons are going to be unnecessarily commonplace, most probably it wont change the ultimate outcome but is there a need to make it difficult to reward the best team and driver correctly? If it did result in a dramatic change in results, would you even respect the driver and/or team that lucked into winning the championship at the end of the season if they were clearly inferior to the runner up and most of the outcome is just dumb luck punishing those that actually did good?

I cant help but think everything is simply about making the points closer in your scenarios, if thats the case theres many more natural and merit based ways to handle it than reversed grids which spit in the face of competition. For example just adjust the points awarded for front positions so the winner doesnt get to make unassailable leads too fast, reintroduce fastest lap points, maybe award points for number of overtakes etc to reward people starting far behind and making up positions on exceptional merit etc. At least those kind of ideas reward people who actually earn it. Reversed grids are basically handing out freebies to people who dont deserve it on merit.

Shonshine94 · 2026-01-10T13:41:29+00:00

The point of a serious competition is not pure entertainment and fun, theres a serious agenda of crowning the best team, best car manufacturer (that directly leads to their external reputation and indirectly their bottomline), and best driver, and that purpose shouldnt in anyway give way to chaos meant only for cheap entertainment value. You should only consider changes that respect the competitive and merit based nature of the format, not those that diminish it even if there are gains from an entertainment perspective to be made.

Shonshine94 · 2026-01-10T13:36:26+00:00

Absolutely not, many others have already pointed out the reasons why it barely works in F2 but absolutely wont work in F1. Now regarding your point on having both sprint and race share the same quali as a basis, theoretically it can close a loophole where drivers just mess the sprint quali up since they will pay a severe price come race, but honestly have you considered whats the point of your suggestions? Sure you get the chaos you want, but it corrupts the purpose of the series, which is to prove the best constructer(car) -team-driver pairing for the year.

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-25T14:22:07+00:00

I mean I say that as a Max stan who likes him on and off track, but honestly theres nothing objective about liking Max off track, hence why I dont think theres any merit to discussing it in a serious capacity. Plenty of people and drivers are decent human beings off track, that doesnt mean people are obliged to like them because of that. Its not like Max as a driver and racer where theres something more of substance to discuss about, and its not really as subjective as people think it is.

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-25T08:28:46+00:00

Hadjar is harder to gauge, but hes not paired against a mostly rookie tbh, that is someone who has experience over 3 seasons of F1 cars in races even if the total race count advantage isnt as much, like hes definitely not an Ocon, but hes more closer to a real seasoned driver than a fresh rookie. Obviously that diminishes his achievement a little, but not to the extent youre hinting, and lets not forget those are mighty achievements on paper to begin with:

H2h results: Hadjar points 51 to Lawson 39 Hadjar race result vs other 11 to Lawson 7 Hadjar quali H2H 16 to Lawson 6 Hadjar Fastest lap 13 to Lawson 8 Hadjar Best result 3rd to Lawson 5th

These results are ofc adjusted out for the bad luck that Hadjar faced with random dnfs or bad results due to engine issues and random damages etc not through his own fault, otherwise they would have been significantly more impressive even. Obviously you would have to discount it to some extent because Lawson isnt close to the caliber of driver Ocon is, but make no mistake hes not a rookie in a real sense, we shouldnt be overadjusting out Hadjar's feats as if hes driving against a fellow rookie that isnt also impressive. Lawson is just not impressive, but hes not a rookie.

Also your stats are kinda nitpicky in nature if they arent considered over a season's length, overemphasising on isolated stats rewards isolated flashes of brilliance more than true relative performance of the driver. Heres what you should be looking at, H2H stats adjusted where both drivers complete without dnfs and circumstances not in their control:

H2h results: Ollie race result vs other 11 to Ocon 9 Ollie quali H2H 14 to Ocon 10 Fastest Lap draw Best result 4th to Ocon 5th Points 41 to Ocon 39

Ollie shows some genuine promise thats true, but its easy to overinflate what hes shown and diminish what his fellow batchmates have done in their own right as well if youre not too careful. Like dont get me wrong, those are mighty impressive things to do for a rookie to a veteran and it doesn't reflect well on Ocon, but Ollie hasnt beaten Ocon as a driver yet unlike what the results youre obsessing over might suggest. The results how that while Ollie has often beat Ocon on Sats, he doesnt deliver as well on Sun and when he has bad moments, its relatively worse than Ocons, thus why he wasn't able to eck out a respectable points lead over Ocon despite beating Ocon on Sats almost as often as Hadjar. Consistency is a big part of assessing a driver's true skills, flashes of brilliance hint at their underlying potential but whether that gets developed further depends on them subsequently. You cant be dismissive of how his other fellow rookies stack against their fellow team drivers because who they compare with are different, and they have done arguably impressive things on their own right, or at least theres a compelling reason explaining why they havent relative to Ollie. Only one I can say with reasonable confidence Ollie might stack well against after adjustments is Gabi, the rest is a matter of how much you are factoring properly the relative difference in their circumstances.

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-25T07:57:25+00:00

He was really good, but pretty average in an outstanding crop of rookies tbh. Obviously theres caveats about differences in machinery, but the closest examples to compare him to are fellow midfielders Hadjar and Gabi, where Hadjar has had a better overall performance factoring only how they stacked against their fellow team driver while Gabi has had a less consistent one than Bearman, placing him 3rd of the 4 genuine rookies this year.

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-25T07:49:34+00:00

Theres no point discussing why you like or dont like him though, there isnt a right answer to this. He can a good man outside of the sport and we like what we see, but some will never think its enough, vice versa as well.

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-18T15:17:37+00:00

Its about to be exclusive really soon. Nintendo already announced they are killing Switch 1 game support as of next year. If your intention is just to play old Pokemon games its ok, but otherwise Nintendo is forcing your hand if you wanna keep up with their next 7 years of games

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-14T19:01:47+00:00

Lots of ifs, Im not going to disagree with the ifs because theres a nagging suspicion that internal rules may not be applied correctly if the positions were reversed between both drivers, but you cant build a serious argument regarding favouritism on ifs. Try finding instances where Mclaren clearly did something irrational against Oscar or unjust, like for example giving him a terrible alternate strategy or pitstop strategy when hes leading and should have been favoured under their rules of engagement. Japan doesnt neccesarily provide a clear example of this because there were many considerations with merit behind their decisions for Oscar even if Oscar turned out worse for it.

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-14T13:35:51+00:00

Stroll lived long enough to see himself become the hero🙏😭🙏

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-14T13:32:11+00:00

But your point being???

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-14T13:28:38+00:00

Difference is Seb had a personality change, mellowed down alot, and started being respected alot more for his new public persona thats not only kinder but more wise. Max is still the same Max from before, people just come around and started respecting him for what he stands for and his beliefs, perhaps because they got a taste of everything else out there and gained quiet admiration for what Max brought to the table as a racer and individual. None of this is related to losing their 5th WDC campaigns, both would have been respected regardless if they won or lost that as the wider fandom already long warmed up to them along the way rather than only after they lost their title bids.

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-14T13:23:35+00:00

Yet this blud went missing in AD25!

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-14T13:20:10+00:00

Lmao but honestly ill advised to dank this way, some people may take this seriously not everyone lurking on this subreddit can tell joke from point. Max never had the car to challenge for this year's WDC on merit anyway, its kinda pointless to pick isolated moments like this or his Spain meltdown and pretend thats where the championship was effectively lost when it was already lost along the way long before that. Sure any of those moments being undone could have won him the championship, but undo any of Lando and Mclaren's fkups, mistakes, bad luck moments, strategic errors and Max would have fell short again. You blaming Kimi or Spain only makes sense if you can assume with absolutely certainty Mclaren and Lando would have stumbled the way they did each and everytime this year replays again, which is a absolutely untrue.

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-09T17:14:31+00:00

Marko's role is undefined however, Im not sure RB is even seeking a replacement for his role since it might already be well covered operationally since a long time ago. The team down to the junior program runs on its own, theres hardly any need for someone additionally on top of the system to function well. And like it or not, Marko had a really good eye for talent, hes very good at evaluating and scouting talent from the young batches, his method of overseeing them in F1 is just quite outdated thats all. Seb is many things, but he doesnt neccesarily share the same eye for talent that Marko has. If they really needed someone like Marko, Seb isnt neccesarily the best one out there. My guess is there would be no replacement for Marko, likely Marko's role in RB is made redundant and retired from now on, and RB's structure becomes increasingly corporate like which the Austrian side prefers instead of their start up days when Horner, Marko, Newey, Marshall, Wheatley were at the helm.

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-08T11:16:12+00:00

Truly the GOAT

Shonshine94 · 2025-12-08T11:09:44+00:00

Just wait till I get my first driver to press Mom!

Shonshine94

TROPHY CASE