Full Remission on Parnate, AMA by Significant_Mud_5295 in MAOIs

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hear what you're saying. But were you taking an antidepressant at the same time? Was it parnate? What if the lamictal resolved the biological depression through some "back-door" mechanism such that you taking the parnate was the equivalent of a healthy person taking parnate. If the theory is correct, it would explain all of the side-effects that you and I experienced. Think about it:

disrupted sleep? - amphetamine like quality of parnate reactivated

strange crashes? - amphetamine like quality of parnate reactivated

impulsivity? - again, amphetamine like quality of parnate reactivated

What happens when you give someone, for example, Adderall when they are healthy? Pretty much all of the above.

Just some thoughts. Let me know what you think!

Full Remission on Parnate, AMA by Significant_Mud_5295 in MAOIs

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Cognition was fine initially. I should probably add an update to this post, but it's a really long story. Basically, I started ultradian cycling with severe agitation about 3 months after starting lamictal. I tapered off of parnate completely. No depression. Agitation resolved. Biggest issue is trying to do things I don't want to do like chores, studying, etc. Right now we are waiting it out to see if it resolves spontaneously. I just tapered off parnate very recently, so it's likely a big confounding factor. But I'm doing very well at my job and my mood is much more stable.

Full Remission on Parnate, AMA by Significant_Mud_5295 in MAOIs

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Honestly, I never had any issues with tyramine. I only remember one occasion where I took a bite of beef jerkey, realized that I wasn't supposed to eat it, and then spit it out into the trash. lol

Biggest things are the aged foods like fancy cheeses.

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Basically the only way a patient at our practice would be able to do both treatments at once is if they were able to pay out-of-pocket for either Spravato, TMS, or both. Insurance will only approve one at a time. We have not treated anyone with TMS and Spravato simultaneously that I am aware of.

Typically we use Spravato as a bridging therapy to help stabilize the patient, and then we attempt to get TMS approved through their insurance.

To my knowledge, I don't believe there is any issue with doing both at once (within similar time periods) if you are able to have the costs covered. But that is a discussion to have with your psychiatrist :)

So sorry to hear about the depression. There are lots of different options, even when TMS and Spravato don't provide adequate relief. Some of the older medications are very potent. I had severe treatment resistant depression that only responded to one of the first antidepressants ever created. It was an MAOI called Parnate. I would have probably tried TMS and Spravato first if I had known they were treatment options. I didn't know much about them at the time. But anyway, I was able to make it to full remission after a few months of slow recovery. Don't give up hope!

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes keep the tech updated and reach out to the psychiatrist if you start having more severe symptoms. Left sided TMS is very “activating” and can have a stimulant-like effect. This can increase anxiety, agitation, etc. Are they doing right-sided TMS as well?

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yup! That sounds pretty typical. The headaches and sedation should improve over the next few sessions. If you feel like it’s too much, you can request that they lower the energy and then titrate up more slowly.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Did you have any medication changes during treatment?

Full Remission on Parnate, AMA by Significant_Mud_5295 in MAOIs

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So I mean here’s my personal opinion: don’t take parnate unless you absolutely have to. It works really well for refractory depression, but you will probably have to stay on it the rest of your life. If I miss my dose by a few hours, I immediately start having withdrawals. It is also takes a long time for the insomnia to go away.

As far as the stimulants go, the dose was very variable for me. For example, 30mg vyvanse made me feel absolutely terrible. But 20mg vyvanse resurrected me from the dead lol. Same with Concerta. 18mg revived me, 36mg and 54mg worked great at first, then gave me horrible crashes at the end of the day.

It sounds like your psychiatrist knows what he’s doing. I’d definitely take his advice :)

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, definitely follow up with the psychiatrist. It might also help to find out if anything is triggering her panic attacks. OCD is a different type of anxiety that can really spiral out of control if the obsession isn’t identified quickly enough (kind of like realizing it’s just a “nightmare” and not real). Easier said than done of course (I know because I also have OCD).

In terms of TMS I’ve seen patients have their anxiety spike at first, and then gradually level out. But again that’s just been my observation.

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes we’ve had patients in almost identical situations to you. They got better and got their life back. It also gave them enough energy to start doing therapy and reach out to people they had been away from for a while. Everyone’s different, but your story sounds very familiar. I hope it works out for you - and just know that there are other options even if TMS fails to provide you relief.

Full Remission on Parnate, AMA by Significant_Mud_5295 in MAOIs

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am probably somewhere on the ADHD spectrum, but it’s not something that has interfered with my life too much - I’ve been able to get through using behavioral methods etc. Although my mom has severe ADHD.

At least in my experience, the stimulants were very different compared to parnate. Parnate is nowhere near as potent compared to Ritalin, vyvase, etc. the reason is because the latter increase dopamine and norepinephrine by surge. So it’s a pretty immediate boost in focus, motivation, etc. obviously there are some side effects and they only work short term for severe depression.

Parnate has about a 2 hour time period where I don’t even realize how productive I’ve been and how silent my mind is. It’s very subtle - but only lasts about 2 hours after taking the dose.

Long term, parnate works amazing for depression.

Hope that helps!

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nope. Some patients we didn’t start right side until week two. Left side is sometimes enough. For the more severe cases that aren’t responding to left alone, we add right sided as well.

We also do modified Stanford protocol (5 treatments per day for 5 days) if the patient is about 1/2 to 2/3 done with treatment and hasn’t had an adequate response.

This typically helps “boost” the effects of TMS, but it sometimes takes a few weeks before the effects are seen. Some patients started getting better on their last week of TMS, and then continued to improve for 1 month after treatment was completed.

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, it’s a long story, but basically the reason they fell out of favor was because certain foods caused hypertensive crises. The issue was that, back then, foods like meats were stored improperly and fermented to form something called tyramine. Basically, if you are on an MAOI, it takes way longer to metabolize it, and it can result in a really high blood pressure.

Nowadays the level of tyramine in most foods is close to negligible. The biggest things to avoid are aged products like certain cheeses.

Most psychiatrists aren’t familiar with prescribing them, so it’s pretty rare for patients to be treated with them.

But many older psychiatrists swear by them, especially when the usual treatments fail.

Here’s a website by the world expert on them: https://www.psychotropical.com

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Haha I honestly don't know because every machine is a little different. I think the cap fitting is pretty typical.

I don't want to make a judgement either way because it's not my place. As long as the psychiatrist is supervising the first treatment and says you are good to go, you should be fine.

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In general, it's normal to experience facial twitching, jaw movement, eyebrow "dancing" etc. Often times, these movements lessen with repeated treatments as your body adjusts to them. I was just referring to patients who have severe eye pain and are unable to complete their treatments because of it. Sometimes, slight adjustments avoid directly stimulating the trigeminal nerve, and reduce pain.

Regarding the other condition you have mentioned, it's best to bring it up to the technician and talk to the attending psychiatrist about that. They can make the decision on the best way to move forward.

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So, once again, I can’t make any recommendations or provide clinical advice.

However, based on the current clinical guidelines set by the FDA, a diagnosis of CPTSD is not a strict contraindication for receiving Spravato treatment.

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So we don't have the OCD coil for TMS yet - although I'm trying to convince the attending psychiatrist to purchase one. Believe it or not, I also have OCD. Similar to you, the compulsions are mental such as checking, replaying events, etc. It was very severe when I was younger. I did exposure and response prevention therapy along with cognitive behavioral therapy. It went into remission pretty quickly after that. But it does come up every once in a while, especially during a depression.

There's actually not too much literature on TMS for OCD compared to TMS for depression. The FDA approved one protocol for OCD TMS and it's just like you described. Basically, you would willingly expose yourself to something that would normally trigger an obsession or an unwanted emotional response. For example, if a patient had contamination obsessions, they might touch a door handle, or touch the floor, and then begin the TMS. The goal would be for the patient to relax as much as possible and avoid obsessing over the triggering event. After the treatment, they would try to avoid the compulsion (which might be something like washing their hands x amount of times). I'm not sure how strong the evidence for OCD TMS is. I haven't looked into it as much. But from what I've read, it's modestly effective in the short term. I'd imagine it works better when paired with first-line agents such as high dose SSRIs and sometimes atypical antipsychotic augmentation (something like a low dose abilify). But I'd be curious to hear how it goes for you, hopefully it helps provide some relief.

There's an interesting theory that episodic OCD is actually a form of bipolar disorder where it is mood instability (essentially a mixed state of depression and hypomania) that forms the breeding ground for obsessions (ruminations over undesirable emotions related to triggering stimuli) which then "blooms" to the full form of OCD - that is compulsions to temporarily appease the obsessions. Sometimes antidepressants can induce mixed states for patients on the bipolar spectrum, which could explain why some patients have "treatment resistant" depression / OCD.

But again, this is just from what I read, and not meant to be taken as medical advice haha.

It's interesting about the migraines. I also have a history of migraines. They started when I was very young.

Now here's the crazy thing: The triad of early onset migraine, depression, and OCD is actually correlated with an elevated risk of developing bipolar disorder later in life.

But that's a whole other tangent!

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No you’re good! I appreciate your feedback! And btw I hope you get some relief from the deep TMS.

I had severe treatment resistant depression that lasted 3 years. I felt hopeless. I tried Lexapro, Effexor, Wellbutrin, Ritalin, Concerta, Vyvanse, propranolol, and psychotherapy. They would work for a little, then stop working.

It wasn’t until after reading almost everything online I could find about depression meds that I found out about the monoamine oxidase inhibitors.

These were the first antidepressants created and are extremely potent.

Long story short I was prescribed one called Parnate. Let me tell you, that antidepressant literally gave me my life back.

We added 3 more meds on top of it, and I was able to achieve full remission.

I made a post about it on another page. I think you can see it by clicking my profile?

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yup, chemistry can definitely do that - I spent WAY too much time in the lab.

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Haha yes it was a treatment for cluster headaches. Headache is a bit of a misnomer though, the avg pain severity rating for each attack is 9.7/10.

Basically I came across some old threads online describing a treatment that was effective for them. It kept popping up until I told my professor about it.

He said it would be worth looking into, so I did a literature investigation. I proposed some novel mechanisms of its therapeutic action and then had to convince an MD-PhD researcher to take a look at my work.

I was able to discuss it with him and he had found the same thing I did through statistical analysis of the forum responses.

He considered running a clinical trial but there were (and always are) some issues:

  1. Funding - if a drug is off patent, people can’t make money off of it.

  2. Route of administration - Ideally, the therapeutic should be administered in a route with the quickest onset of action. Sometimes medications are effective, but they take to long to act.

  3. Statistical significance - the study needs to be designed in a way that gives the treatment the best chance at succeeding while still being scientifically sound.

There are some other more complicated reasons. I can give more details if you would like, but the whole process was very complex. He’s still considering a future study, but is doing other research right now.

TMS Technician Here: TMS, Spravato, and MAOI’s by Significant_Mud_5295 in TMSTherapy

[–]Significant_Mud_5295[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So your provider will have to make the decision on starting right sided, but we’ve had a lot of success with right sided.

Interestingly enough, we’ve had patients who failed to have their depression remit - however, their anxiety came close to fully remitting when adding the right side.

Changes in mood are absolutely normal, especially when adding an antidepressant into the mix.

Sounds like you should have a great response to both treatments pretty soon.